November 8, 2004 New York University Panelists: Jonathan Schell and Seymour Hersh Moderator: Bruce Shapiro, Contributing Editor for The Nation and writes for Salon.com BS: First of all i would like to extend a welcome to everyone here we are here having this converastion at an extraordinary moment a moment like a breath just days after the reelection of president bush a moment when we speak us marines and others are commencing an attack on falluja a battle for control of the story, the story of command decisions, the story of body count, the story of prisoners i can't think of anyone id' rather have a converastion with about this moment and about journalism that tries to take control of the story than with jonathan and sy there's a phrase we take for granted: human rights reporting I think it's easy to forget that this is not something that always existed in very large part, human rights reporting exists because of these two gentlemen today because of schell, we learned that it was the daily conduct of war taht was newsworthy the very things overlooked by most battlefield reporters As Hersh's exposure of the My Lai massacre we learne dhow to take the tools of the muckraker and apply them to mass atrocity, something that had never been done before since this is largely a group of students, one of the first thing might be to go into the past a little bit when you were the age of many of these people in this room, how you ended up doing this kind of work? SH: I didn't know this was going to be a therapy session Anybody that didn't underestand My Lai was a fantastic story shouldnt' be in the business. the reason I got into Abu Ghraib was because CBS didn't do the story I coudl tell you simply when in 1969 I learned about my lai I'm always amazed that more reporters don't do more of that kind of stuff it's just a great story Today you want to talk about Falluja the great story is about the fact that very many people in the military don't think it's effective someone was telling me about a great book called Eclipse by Alan Moorhead There were many German generals, why did they carry on for the last year when it was hopeless? This is a question that we have to ask ourselves: this is a lose-lose and what kind of military do we have where this isn't clear or isn't being made clear? Why I decided to become what I am, I don't know. JS: A great deal of journalism consists of pursuing stories that Bringing something to light with that courage SH: You don't know the book,t here are 62 long pieces in the new yorker in 67 and 68 Far from us being so special I think it says a lot of how bad the rest of us is BS: The truth is that there were not a lot of reporters asking the questions you were asking JS: I think just to keep going in this self-depricating mode, I had been living in Japan for a year and a half before I wnet to Vietnam I had a ticket that let me stop wherever I wanted I'l just tell one story I had one phone number and that was of a journalist caleld Fran¨ois Suly I called up that number and he cordially invited me into the newsweek offices I read a book: "The Two Vietnams" by Bernard Fall I got to that office, and a guy asked me what I was reading and i showed him and he took it up and he signed it -- that was Bernard Fall those two wonderful high spirited frenchmen It was accidental really that was the life-changing moment because the generosity of those two jouranlists who were killed in the war I didn't have a developed views on the war that was because I'd been in Japan I couldnt' read about it it became almost immediately clear to me that this whole thing was an absurdity in its own terms we were supposed to be saving the people but we were attacking them it seems to me as I later thought about it was that the reporters who had been sent out there were imbued with an idea of what that war was about it was an amazing illustration of mental constructs to block out what was happening incrdibly all those years later, making the same fundamental mistakes SH: I think the real question is POV I think if you think about it let me give you an exmaple any budding jouranlists who want to be involved Get a replay of the news conference after the election He opened up a wedge for reporters to start writing more, that's gone The 36 Kurds, Bunch of paid mercenaries they're not iraqis, they're kurds it's a horrible shell game being played by god this is going to be nation-saving I blame, I would get rid of the top editors of the networks, the NYT, lop them all off JS: What's incredible to me is that many of the same mistakes that were made in Vietnam are being made today there was an incredible effort to suprress the lessons of Vietnam it said that the US wasn't the most powerful nation in the world peoples around don't like it and they have a means to resist it right now what's amazing is that there is a willfull ignora you dont' have to be a genius to realize that we lost the hearts and minds of vietnam BS: from vietnam you went on to write about corruption in the nixon administration I was looking recently at the DOJ memo which was looking at Renquist's memo about invading Vietnam in 1970 SH: I would say taht there's more of a relationship between Iran-Contra Bad republicans? They're back. That means war, folks The legal papers in abu ghraib what this govt does that's unusual different from nixon, there was more rationality the definition of torture is only defined by this administration as an act that causes extreme pain loss of organ or loss of life of course, all bets are off we're going to be back to square one on prisoner abuse now we've got at least four years before anyone will do anything about it the whole thing about nixon and the vietnam war that's chilling that was a tactical war american national security was never at stake now even though the numbers are far lower nonetheless, we're ina strategic war we're in a war that could cause enormous damage to the US now having reelected it, we are now deep in the sewer with him you're going to see a coupel things, you're going to see a complete diminuation of american business abroad you're going to see the dollar disappear everybody has been telling everybody get out of the market we're going to be in real trouble js: one of the differences that is so striking was that nixon was fantastic at cover-ups the wwhole torture was authorized almost immediately authorized after sept. 11 not only were they justifying torture that the presdient can set aside intl law and the constitution and the USCC they were writing how to beat the rap from day one what you were seeing was a rethinking of the whole american govt really of what the exec. branch is that's on day one and then the tortue flows from that, and then the coverups and then sy hersh to tell us what really happened SH: and then the torture comes back BS: besides the great work that you do what stories should journalists be looking at? What's not being done right? SH: Your'e getting into a tricky area I think there's a tremendous lack of integrity of the military at the highest level they know it's hopeless, they know they can't win This straw man that's been put in, Allawi this ridiculousf igure that we installed to keep him in power we've exponentially increased the bombing of Iraq round-the-clock in some cases we don't know and nobody's asking how many sorties a day how much tonnage, we have no idea if they're dropping x thousands we don't know how much is being dropped on a country we're trying to save the one story we're missing is that its' become a major air war the air force has always there's room to do some reporting but none of it gets done JS: I think one of the differences between this and Vietnam In Vietnam I was allwoed to fly in forward air control they would go and hover over the targets and would radio in and would bring in the air strikes i saw whole provinces get wiped out before my eyes there's nothing of that kind, there's no reporting of that kind iraq has almost fallen into a black hole it also has to do with all these kidnappings the circumference that reporters can operate in is steadily narrow what is going to be decisive is what are the actual politics of that place itself what are the factions? what are they thinking? what do they think about the kurds? if there's one lesson of all anti-imperial fights and that's what that really is, its' the politics of the local place that wins out in the end it may not be able to be discoverable by a western reporter SH: for those of us who lived through the vietnam in 1966 RFK started saying that we should start talking to the VietCong it is my belief that this is not an insurgency the war that we started in march is going on now if this is correct we are dealing with an opposition that's incredbily sophisticated, that communicates in ways we don't understand the caches during the last week of the campaign that was a sophisticated looting job if this is correct and there is an opposition to get out of this we will have to deal with the opposition it's crazy to think of i've seen some stuff in rolling stone that's been good the brits have been good the times and the post have some good reporters but the kinds of stories you're talking about don't get done BS: What makes good reporting in this war? What is it that when a piece stands out? SH: TO differentiate between combat and murder You gotta call it what it is JS: One of the best reporters is Anthony Shadid of the Post he pierced the veil between americans and iraqis he speaks arabic and was acceptable to the people he gave you a feeling of what people felt and thought it was just a glimpse through the veil Iraq may as well be the 51st state as far as the US being in charge of it president bush is president of iraq in a certain sort of way when was the last time that you saw a person from iraq on any discussion on television in the united states? at best you see an exile SH: chalabi, allawi He's talking about racism It is true that I always the one president that did something amazing was clinton he was the first president since 1945 to bomb white people what's wrong with him? And he got reelected. BS: Racism at Abu Ghraib SH: War creates something you have to dehumanaize the opposition ragheads that notion who has differernt cultural ways in vietnam they didn't have refrigerators, they made fun of them we have an army that does what the leadership wants BS: Before the war, you did have a lot of officers who were unhappy with the way things were going I picked up on a sense from officers I knew that this was not going to be a happy enterprise SH: Shinseki was an oddball We've been taken over by 8 or 9 neoconservatives how they did it I would have spent a couple of years trying to figure out how they did it all during 2002 when bush was talking about going the con job was breathtaking my guess is that he decided to go to war with iraq in the 1990s bush was more in it than we think shinseki goes public before the war that you need a couple hundred thousand troops, more than you have this is my perception they weren't mad at him because of the numbers, but because he didn't get it the complaint about shinseki wasn't that he mentioned numbers he was someone who had been taken out of a cult and deprogrammed we're dealing with a country run by a cult we're dealing with people who have no grounding in iraq how do you deal with it? JS: one comment about this troops thing there's something peculiar that hasn't been pointed out the idea of using few troops was essential to their strategy it was essential to their global hegemonic policy to use few troops it seems that they did have a romantic notion that they would get veiled out by a lot of enthusiastic iraqis on the other side if you say well of course anyone knows that if you want to occupy a country of 25 mil you need 400,000 troops even today we have the NYT calling for an increase that's insanity if you say that you need more troops means that you're going to be ruling a country by force more troops now mean more casualities SH: the Times editorial page has been good in the last few months we're going to be a different kind of complainer rational the problem is that he doesn't care I think taht these guys really believe that it was going to be flowers and springtime to show you how naive we are I think the winners are Iran in all of this Look where Iran was in 2001 the population is skewed young there Iran was causing trouble for the mullahs in three years they've gotten rid of saddam and america is weakened and the mullahs are in more control than ever if you go back and study your history is do read before you write when khomeini was living in paris, there were a bunch of people in opposition to the shah that khomeini would lead a secular govt I think that chalabi thought he could handle the iranians if I had a million hours I could make a very elaborate connection between chalabi and iran they were helping him in our predicability and in our neo-connishness I don't see a way out the only way out is total loss a terrific recession and a military defeat we'll destroy the country in order to save it the bombing will increase, the dollar is going to collapse , there's going to be an economic crunch maybe there will have to be some legal action taken against him or what I dont' see the end JS: there's a reckoning just in general with their relationship with the rest of the world I think that there's going to be a collision with the real world that occurs I'll tell you what worries me I'm afraid of the health of the democracy here at home when that reckoning comes, if it comes, economically and militarily is this party now in charge not just in three branches of govt, the commanding positions in the business world, and the military so that the opposition has been shut out of governmental power there's no institutional power the media is being undermined by fox news and rush limbaugh my question is when this reckoning comes, and there has to be a roil political fight are they going to crack down for good or are they going to permit themselves to be challenged? BS: Let me throw something at you, this is a room full of largely young people. some journalism students and others. what do young people need to be thinking about and doing? what should students be doing? SH: They have the tanks just remember that I don't think they're going to a draft because that will get them in a lot of trouble studnets should remember that its' their country as much as ours I think we're going to have to retool quite a bit there were a number of groups that really got out a lot of people maybe one of the functions should be to start doing what you can locally I'm afraid I agree with it's goingn to be tough to wedge 'em out it's a really scary thing I don't know what's going to happen Bad times for the American people Q: I read your bio, but can you give me a little more detail on how you went from Chicago to reporting on war issues SH: I was assigned there by the AP. That happens. Q: I read your articles in the New Yorker, I'm aspriing to do what you do. What advice can you give me? SH: You heard one wondeful story from jonathan about how he got started read before you write and go do things JS: I believe that too. Journalism is something that's to be done. FInd someone who will pretend to have sent you there. Q: Given that there ahve always been commercial pressures going back, how do you see the press getting back into the game? or do you think that is has to be part of this cycle of destruction that will come with the economy? SH: one thing I notice is that I've been out pitching my book I notice that there is a tremendous rage of the press from both points of view there's a lot of sense from democrats and college students that the press let us down the only thing I can say is that they're dead right I dont' think that with the leadership I just don't know It's very discouraging part of the problem is that there's a tremendous amount of self-censorship they sort of back off it's a very serious problem BS: I wonder that one of the things that struck me is that the WMD accusations turned the press inside out. when the president speaks it gets credibility and reporters get taken for a ride. how did this happen? JS: Since 9/11 there has been a tremendous line up of pressures on the press. number one is a punititve exec branch that will punish the NYT was banned on flying on Dick Cheney's plane during the campaign the other problem is commercial pressure it doesn't make a good advertising environment to be oppose the administration you line all those things up you find very few editors that are willing to steer in opposition SH: Why not refuse to cover it? Diminish the coverage Why not just simply say that we're not going to tolerate it I don't understand I've had reporters that have told me to put on incredible pressure if a pressure seems to be too hard, why not make that the lead story? I don't understand it Q: Assuming we can't win the war, what do you think would happen if we did what the French did in Algeria and left? JS: I don't know if I have a good prediction to make To be perfectly honest with you I dont' feel that I have a good knowledge of what Iraq is I haven't done that historical reading it was a country under a ferocious dictatorship for several decades what i do feel confident of is that every day the united states stays it turns more bitter BS: If that's not gonig to happen SH: How did we leave Vietnam? were we beaten? If the NV hadn't come and destroyed us in S. Vietnam, we would still be there. we're not very good losers we're going to bomb this country to smithereens before we pull out BS: What should they be asking? SH: This govt isn't going to respond to it What should they do? I guess maybe more people should have gone to Ohio or something but there will be another election, I dont' think they can stop the election in 2006, maybe there will the only thing you can do is work the process BS: YOu have studied non-violent social change. What's possible? JS: IN terms of american policy? BS: Changing the dynamic JS: What should the Democrats do? SHould they suddenly wave Bibles at people in the south? That's one whole discussion which i there has to be somewhere in the society where just telling it the way they see it is the way sy hersh does its' very difficult to imagine the circumstances where this administration pulls troops out of iraq the one way they would do it is if they would lose control here withdrawl should be the goal but with the recognition that isn't going to be a very good outcome Q: I think it's the indpt journalists that's putting pressure on the NYT, my question is why do you think Iraq is being covered like a spot news story? Embedding, what do you think? SH: They said to you that its' a bang-bang story? That's so depressing BS: Embedding? JS: What I noticed about embedding is that when it was really needed was when the American forces were going on these search and destroy operations that was the war, that was the real war and that was not these big set piece battles I would have welcomed a little more embedding SH: I think it's a terrible practice because they get the Stockholm Syndrome You end up minimizing the things that you dont' want to report you end up covering the war from the perspective of the people that you're with some of the worst coverage of the war was with the two star generals but that wasn't the war there's a war still going on now this is not an insurgency, it's still a war i think that we have very little understanding of what we're fighting Q: One thing I have to say is that what do you have to say about, what is the impact over there? What is the jouranlists repsonsibility as far as the troops are concerned? this whole concept it's kind of ironic that they voted for bush and they're out there fighting a war bush created? SH: I think one interesting thing about this war we're not mad at the troops we were angry at the troops we think that they're as much victims as the people they're forced to annilihate the democratic party has a lot of the problems with the value stuff if the case could have been made that there are the moral value of providing health care for everybody the country's always been torn apart by religion the religious fight has been there from the beginning days it's always been a fight these guys just played on it the next democratic campaign will be more tuned-in I'd like to think so, it's not a determining factor the gay lesbian society there was tremendous debate about the marriage issue an awareness that pushing marriage was going to pay a huge price there was going to be a huge social cost that's not a new phenomenon BS: I want to stay with troops for a minute. The troops who were involved with atrocities, do you view them as fundamentally pathological individuals? How did these acts happen? SH: the thing about abu ghraib that's important is the chronology btw, journalists: chronology, chronology, chronology blast at the jordanian embassy, it dawned on us that there was an insurgency in the fall of 2003 we've got to squeeze the prisoners we didn't have intelligence in a war with stateless terror you cannot win it with guns, it's all with intel they began in sept oct, these guys were reservists in WV they were MPs, Lyndie England she was a night pizza manager they weren't sophisticated they were the night crew the idea that seven kids from WV would know that sexual humiliation was the way to go they do this sept through jan one of them report them with a cd-rom all of the kids are burning this, it's all over they begin to investigate rumsfeld stays in may january 2004 complaints are mad jan 20 the president knows what do they do between the stories that CBS didn't write That's in May, early may from january to early may, what did they do? nada. they changed the officers. All they did was quietly prosecute seven "bad seeds" when you send kids to the army, they're in loco parentis there's nothing as criminally stupid as a 20 y/o kid with a gun the chronology tells you the whole story abu ghraib was an exception in that there were photographs the answer is you could do any f'ing thing that you wanted so long as you didn't kill them you could do anyting you want BS: Will this get worse? JS: It appears that way the offensive on falluja is to suppress the rebels there's been no accountability except those few soldiers someone said that torture in algeria was what to that war was the machine gun was to WWI what that means is that when you have vast systems blindly in collision with local peoples it produces a kind of desparation What are we going to do? They're facing an insurrection that they hadn't thought of they turn on the villagers, like in my lai you had a whole pyramid creating an atmosphere where these things are permitted/required there are always a few people, just a few of them in a situation of overwhelming pressure Q: My Dad is in the Reserves. Served in Afghanistan and was called up to Iraq. I'm from a very small town. More than half of the high school kids didn't go to college and went to the military. They don't inform themselves. It feels like it's endangering my own family. What will have to happen so that people will learn? They don't know anything about what's happening in iraq before they sign up. JS: It's critical the failure of the press that we've been discussing I think that's certainly one place where you'd have to begin before the war, I remember we think about the news pages, I swear to you, you didn't need the fingers on one hand that said "Don't do it." There were only five or six people who were taking the common sense position how are people in a small town going to crystallize this? SH: People like Scott Ritter were demonized by the NYT that's when you get back to some of the core issues television is a disaster on this stuff you're not going to get people to pay attention we know from the invasion of normandy that the first wave were people who had never seen combat ignorance is part of the american culture BS: IS there a way that perhaps those of us who are critical of the war, is there a way that we've been talking that makes it not as accesible as it should be? SH: Is The Nation very popular in Watertown, NY? You can't change the demographics That's devils' advocate in a way if you had that kind of view and you got to a network you'd be off in one minute they dont' want to hear this they're totally committed neo-conservatives television does amazing stuff, cnn will put on two people charlie duelfer did a report that there were no weapons -- but if he could have he would have charlie was our action guy, he was involved in helping the CIA undercut the UN Charlie didn't tell you that at no time once we established, we had Saddam back down, at no time did we plan to take down the he didn't tell you that he couldn't have done it because it's like me telling you that 30 years ago if I coulda done it with Sharon Stone, i would have Q: My question is that during this election time we heard moral issues from each side of the parties. one was gay and lesbian marriages and the other was wrong time wrong war, wrong place. why did people choose gay marriage instead of wrong war? SH: that's a great question. you answer that. JS: There was a poll that was eye-popping a maryland university poll of the supporters of bush and found out that huge percentages still believe every false fact of the war that Saddam had WMD and ties with Al Qaeda and so forth but that the numbers of those increased during the campaign if ever any facts had been nailed down eventually journalists did get it right this almost willful ignorance there's almost a decision not to respect the factual world and the factual truth Again I don't know how far back to you want to trace it there's a lethal combination of political ideology going back to vietnam then on the other side you have this cultish religious belief once you've jumped over that hurdle maybe it's not so hard to believe that there were WMD in Iraq SH: What can you say? It's astonishing. It's a sad commentary. I don't know how much the press can be blamed for this we santized the war. there's nothign funny to say about this anymore. in all fairness to the whole notion of democracy we did have a very inept candidate although in the end he got better there was a time in the end that he said I can do better. I can train the iraqi army then bush said: liberal liberal liberal he sorta undercut himself there if we painted the war in moral terms it might have gotten some people to think outside of the box. it said an awful lot about us. and we're gonna pay, we're gonna pay bigtime in europe BS: I feel a need to say to close was that despite all of this grizzly news, these are two people who have refused to throw in the towel. SH: We're still reporting You should know taht there is a tremendous number of people that share the views particularly military people they knwo the score