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(Message started by: JiNbOtAk on Oct 5th, 2007, 2:43am)
Title: Survey #4
Post by JiNbOtAk on Oct 5th, 2007, 2:43am
And yet another survey, maybe we could see the predominant religion adhered to by the members here.

I'm a moslem. ( Assuming most would reply christian, I'd say it'll be better if the sect / denominations are stated as well ).
Title: Re: Survey #4
Post by mikedagr8 on Oct 5th, 2007, 2:57am
Progressive Jew.
Title: Re: Survey #4
Post by towr on Oct 5th, 2007, 4:40am
Progressively Confused. ::)
Title: Re: Survey #4
Post by hiyathere on Oct 5th, 2007, 5:05am
Protestant, to be more specific, Baptist.
Title: Re: Survey #4
Post by Grimbal on Oct 5th, 2007, 5:06am
I am a modest atheist.

(I'm too modest to believe there is a God)
Title: Re: Survey #4
Post by SMQ on Oct 5th, 2007, 6:05am
Not a big fan of surveys, but since I'm on record elsewhere anyway: Christian, of the "mainstream" US protestant variety.  Raised in the Christian Reformed Church in North America (http://www.crcna.org) but found them a little too pedantic and more than a little too frangible (they come from a hundreds-years tradition of dealing with doctrinal differences by splitting into new denominations) for my "taste."  My mother left the CRC for the Anglican church for much the same reasons -- I guess at the moment I'm leaning toward Lutheran, but I'm still looking around.

--SMQ
Title: Re: Survey #4
Post by mikedagr8 on Oct 5th, 2007, 6:31am

on 10/05/07 at 05:06:20, Grimbal wrote:
I am a modest atheist.

(I'm too modest to believe there is a God)

I am as well, but my religion is Judaism, my belief is atheism.
Title: Re: Survey #4
Post by towr on Oct 5th, 2007, 6:56am

on 10/05/07 at 06:31:14, mikedagr8 wrote:
I am as well, but my religion is Judaism, my belief is atheism.
I'm confused, how does that work?
How can you both follow a belief system that says there's a god, and one that says there isn't? That sounds like something akin to a meat-eating vegetarian.
Title: Re: Survey #4
Post by mikedagr8 on Oct 5th, 2007, 6:59am

on 10/05/07 at 06:56:00, towr wrote:
I'm confused, how does that work?
How can you both follow a belief system that says there's a god, and one that says there isn't? That sounds like something akin to a meat-eating vegetarian.

I was aksed what I am. I am a Progressive Jew. I was brought up to be one. But I ventured off into atheism. So I am an atheist.

Atheism at heart, on the surface though, I am a Jew. I practise Judaism, but I do not believe in it. Clear?
Title: Re: Survey #4
Post by Grimbal on Oct 5th, 2007, 6:59am

on 10/05/07 at 02:43:41, JiNbOtAk wrote:
I'm a moslem. ( Assuming most would reply christian, I'd say it'll be better if the sect / denominations are stated as well ).


What particular sect / denomination of muslim?
Title: Re: Survey #4
Post by ima1trkpny on Oct 5th, 2007, 8:08am

on 10/05/07 at 06:05:06, SMQ wrote:
I guess at the moment I'm leaning toward Lutheran, but I'm still looking around.


Baptized Lutheran but went Presbyterian. (You might want to check it out if you are still looking... the doctrine allows for evolutionary/scientific beliefs as well as Christian values, etc whereas I found Lutheranism a bit too constraining on either "You agree with us or you don't")
Title: Re: Survey #4
Post by SMQ on Oct 5th, 2007, 9:18am
From what I've seen around here, at least, the couple of LCMS (Missouri Synod) churches can be that way, but the ELCA church I visited seemed much less rigid -- for instance they regularly hold joint services with the Presbyterian and Anglican churches in their neighborhood.  One of my friends who grew up Lutheran said: "If you divide Lutherans by what they feel they can never have too much of, there are two kinds: 'guilt' Lutherans and 'Jello' Lutherans." :)

--SMQ
Title: Re: Survey #4
Post by rmsgrey on Oct 5th, 2007, 2:33pm
I'm semi-Christian, vaguely Anglican...
Title: Re: Survey #4
Post by ThudanBlunder on Oct 5th, 2007, 2:34pm

on 10/05/07 at 06:59:13, mikedagr8 wrote:
Atheism at heart, on the surface thouogh, I am a Jew. I practise Judaism, but I do not believe in it. Clear?

In what way is it better to be a closet atheist rather than be openly agnostic, say?
OK, I suppose your parents wouldn't be very pleased if you came out.
Title: Re: Survey #4
Post by ThudanBlunder on Oct 5th, 2007, 2:56pm
God unites.
Religion divides.
Title: Re: Survey #4
Post by Sameer on Oct 5th, 2007, 3:17pm

on 10/05/07 at 14:56:58, ThudanBlunder wrote:
God unites.
Religion divides.


However, Gods divide!! *sigh*
Title: Re: Survey #4
Post by mikedagr8 on Oct 5th, 2007, 5:45pm

on 10/05/07 at 15:17:24, Sameer wrote:
However, Gods divide!! *sigh*

BUT NOT BY ZERO!!! :P
Title: Re: Survey #4
Post by mikedagr8 on Oct 5th, 2007, 5:48pm

on 10/05/07 at 14:34:00, ThudanBlunder wrote:
In what way is it better to be a closet atheist rather than be openly agnostic, say?
OK, I suppose your parents wouldn't be very pleased if you came out.

I am in no way a closet atheist >:(
I've even written an article stating that if there were a God, it would be Chuck Norris. :P

My parents are well aware with what I believe in, part of being progressive allows you to pretty much do and believe in whatever you like.
Title: Re: Survey #4
Post by ima1trkpny on Oct 5th, 2007, 5:59pm

on 10/05/07 at 17:48:33, mikedagr8 wrote:
I've even written an article stating that if there were a God, it would be Chuck Norris. :P


Oh Lord... not the Chuck Norris jokes LOL...
"There are no races, merely inhabitants of countries whose citizens Chuck Norris has beaten various shades of black and blue."
Title: Re: Survey #4
Post by ThudanBlunder on Oct 5th, 2007, 6:24pm

on 10/05/07 at 06:59:13, mikedagr8 wrote:
Atheism at heart, on the surface though, I am a Jew.


on 10/05/07 at 17:48:33, mikedagr8 wrote:
I am in no way a closet atheist

Why then are you not an atheist on the surface?
And why is atheism more attractive to you (at the age of 16) than agnosticism?
Title: Re: Survey #4
Post by mikedagr8 on Oct 5th, 2007, 6:26pm

on 10/05/07 at 18:24:03, ThudanBlunder wrote:
Why then are you not an atheist on the surface?
And why is atheism more attractive to you (at the age of 16) than agnosticism?

I am not on the surface, becuase I still am part of my family, so until I leave home, I am not on the surface.

Agnosticism doesn't really appeal to me at the moment. Maybe in the future it will, but for now, it doesn't. What is your religious beliefs do you have TB?
Title: Re: Survey #4
Post by Sameer on Oct 5th, 2007, 6:36pm

on 10/05/07 at 17:45:01, mikedagr8 wrote:
BUT NOT BY ZERO!!! :P


Are you taking over the role of someone?  ::)


on 10/05/07 at 18:26:34, mikedagr8 wrote:
I am not on the surface, becuase I still am part of my family, so until I leave home, I am not on the surface.



Why do you need to leave home to have your own identity?
Title: Re: Survey #4
Post by mikedagr8 on Oct 5th, 2007, 6:39pm

on 10/05/07 at 18:36:24, Sameer wrote:
Why do you need to leave home to have your own identity?

Because while I am still at home, I am subjected to my parents and their beliefs. Outside of my house I am my own person (religion wise), but while inside, I am that of my parents.
Title: Re: Survey #4
Post by ThudanBlunder on Oct 5th, 2007, 6:48pm

on 10/05/07 at 18:26:34, mikedagr8 wrote:
I am not on the surface, becuase I still am part of my family, so until I leave home, I am not on the surface.
Agnosticism doesn't really appeal to me at the moment. Maybe in the future it will, but for now, it doesn't. What is your religious beliefs do you have TB?

Yes, I suppose you do not want to disappoint your parents; so that is a wise decision.

Agnosticism is not really something that is meant to 'appeal' to one. It is more like the last resort of the confused soul.

As for myself, I see no reason to label or limit myself by affiliating with any organised religion. If religions help us to behave in a more humane, compassionate way towards others then they justify their existence. As for religions or their representatives actually claiming to represent God, that is presumptuous arrogance. Religions can be likened to rivers flowing into the Ocean. When a molecule of water in a river reaches the Ocean, does it really matter which river it came from? And will the Ocean care? The Ocean knows only the Ocean.
Title: Re: Survey #4
Post by ima1trkpny on Oct 5th, 2007, 6:55pm

on 10/05/07 at 18:48:52, ThudanBlunder wrote:
Religions can be likened to rivers flowing into the Ocean. When a molecule of water in a river reaches the Ocean, does it really matter which river it came from?


Well put. I've chosen the religion that best fits my personal belief system, but it is rather irritating to hear self-righteous evangelists tell others they are going to hell, etc if they don't believe the exact same thing as these supposedly Christian people who turn right around and treat others like crap.
     “If I were not an atheist, I would believe in a God who would choose to save people on the basis of the totality of their lives and not the pattern of their words. I think he would prefer an honest and righteous atheist to a TV preacher whose every word is God, God, God, and whose every deed is foul, foul, foul.”-Isaac Asimov
Title: Re: Survey #4
Post by JiNbOtAk on Oct 5th, 2007, 7:38pm

on 10/05/07 at 06:59:38, Grimbal wrote:
What particular sect / denomination of muslim?


Sunni, adhering to teachings of Imam Syafie.

Hmm, quite a number of atheist, closet, modest or otherwise.
Title: Re: Survey #4
Post by Three Hands on Oct 6th, 2007, 5:10am
The simple version for what I believe is Agnostic. Not really due to confusion, more that my greatest conviction is that my guess is just as good as anyone else's, even if I don't necessarily believe that they're guess is right.
Title: Re: Survey #4
Post by JiNbOtAk on Oct 6th, 2007, 8:43am

on 10/06/07 at 05:10:10, Three Hands wrote:
The simple version for what I believe is Agnostic. Not really due to confusion, more that my greatest conviction is that my guess is just as good as anyone else's, even if I don't necessarily believe that they're guess is right.



on 10/05/07 at 14:33:57, rmsgrey wrote:
I'm semi-Christian, vaguely Anglican...


Guess even brothers don't necessarily share the same beliefs. How about those who are married ? Anyone with different religion than that of their significant other ?
Title: Re: Survey #4
Post by hiyathere on Oct 6th, 2007, 8:50am

on 10/06/07 at 08:43:36, JiNbOtAk wrote:
Guess even brothers don't necessarily share the same beliefs.


??????????????
Title: Re: Survey #4
Post by ima1trkpny on Oct 6th, 2007, 9:27am

on 10/06/07 at 08:50:11, hiyathere wrote:
??????????????

Here (http://www.ocf.berkeley.edu/~wwu/cgi-bin/yabb/YaBB.cgi?board=riddles_general;action=display;num=1033780880;start=50) take a look for yourself. (Reply 54 and 59)
Title: Re: Survey #4
Post by rmsgrey on Oct 6th, 2007, 10:08am

on 10/06/07 at 08:43:36, JiNbOtAk wrote:
Guess even brothers don't necessarily share the same beliefs. How about those who are married ? Anyone with different religion than that of their significant other ?

Or don't describe it in the same way
Title: Re: Survey #4
Post by denis on Oct 6th, 2007, 11:53am
Born Roman Catholic. Found them to interpret some things in too pedantic a manner. Also their services tend to be too formulaic for my taste. Drifted towards non-denominational Christianity.
Title: Re: Survey #4
Post by towr on Oct 6th, 2007, 12:50pm
I quite like Discordianism occasionally.. At least I know that's not meant to be taken seriously.
But overall my religious attitude really depends on the moment. Hence my earlier statement.
Title: Re: Survey #4
Post by JiNbOtAk on Oct 9th, 2007, 9:38pm

on 10/06/07 at 12:50:40, towr wrote:
But overall my religious attitude really depends on the moment.


So, what do you guys think then ? Should we suit our belief system according to how we think it should be, or do we adjust ourselves according to our belief system ?

( I believe there are other non-christians here, who for some reason chose not to disclose their faith )
Title: Re: Survey #4
Post by towr on Oct 9th, 2007, 11:21pm

on 10/09/07 at 21:38:22, JiNbOtAk wrote:
Should we suit our belief system according to how we think it should be, or do we adjust ourselves according to our belief system ?
That sounds like an odd thing to say. If you believe your belief system ought to be different, then isn't it already? And if you don't adjust yourself to your belief system, do you believe it at all?



Quote:
( I believe there are other non-christians here, who for some reason chose not to disclose their faith )
(Or perhaps they see no reason why they should. And I doubt it's just non-christians)
Title: Re: Survey #4
Post by JiNbOtAk on Oct 10th, 2007, 1:49am

on 10/09/07 at 23:21:02, towr wrote:
That sounds like an odd thing to say. If you believe your belief system ought to be different, then isn't it already? And if you don't adjust yourself to your belief system, do you believe it at all?


I guess it didn't come out right. What I'm trying to say is this, most of us are exposed to a certain beliefs from our early years. As we grow older, and we start to ask more questions, some of what we believe might not be valid anymore ( to us at that point of time anyway ). When it comes to that, do we try to adjust the dogma to our personal opinion, or do we search for an alternative to what we used to believe in ?

<This might prove to be more confusing than my previous post>
Title: Re: Survey #4
Post by Ghost Sniper on Oct 10th, 2007, 5:03am

on 10/10/07 at 01:49:48, JiNbOtAk wrote:
I guess it didn't come out right. What I'm trying to say is this, most of us are exposed to a certain beliefs from our early years. As we grow older, and we start to ask more questions, some of what we believe might not be valid anymore ( to us at that point of time anyway ). When it comes to that, do we try to adjust the dogma to our personal opinion, or do we search for an alternative to what we used to believe in ?

<This might prove to be more confusing than my previous post>


You know, I think I might be entering that stage now.  :P
Title: Re: Survey #4
Post by Hippo on Mar 9th, 2008, 2:47pm
I am probably atheist ;) ... I am not organised, but I hope I live according the principles whose lead to establishing religion. ... if these principles are called God ... I do not like institutions as well as the philosophy of a lot of organised ... I can do almost anything, but I must ask regularly for forgiving...

I live in region with roman-catolics as well as evangelists. I dont have deep "knowledge" in this, but even muslims or jewish don't seem to be so much different. (Different rituals, diferent notion of sheer meal but the same principals of shared solidarity ... yes there are big differences in emancipation ...).

Totaly diferent religions are in east Asia.
Title: Re: Survey #4
Post by Icarus on Mar 9th, 2008, 7:23pm

on 10/05/07 at 18:48:52, ThudanBlunder wrote:
As for religions or their representatives actually claiming to represent God, that is presumptuous arrogance.


But it isn't presumptuous arrogance for you to proclaim them wrong? Or for you to decide that God doesn't care:


Quote:
Religions can be likened to rivers flowing into the Ocean. When a molecule of water in a river reaches the Ocean, does it really matter which river it came from? And will the Ocean care? The Ocean knows only the Ocean.
Title: Re: Survey #4
Post by ThudanBlunder on Mar 10th, 2008, 4:22am
Gee, things must be slack in Kansas; don't you already have a couple of nit-picking meta-arguments on the go?


on 03/09/08 at 19:23:45, Icarus wrote:
But it isn't presumptuous arrogance for you to proclaim them wrong?

No, as my views represent only myself. Their views are claimed to represent God. Hardly comparable.
And since I have merely expressed a point of view in a private forum, I have not 'proclaimed' anything.


on 03/09/08 at 19:23:45, Icarus wrote:
Or for you to decide that God doesn't care:

My point seems to have been lost on you: Oneness knows only itself. (If you insist on some form of anthropocentric personification then try 'all-embracing'.)
Again, this is merely my opinion. I have not 'decided' anything. However, if you decide to disagree, that will not be entirely unexpected.

Title: Re: Survey #4
Post by Icarus on Mar 10th, 2008, 3:52pm
What you believe about oneness or God or whatever else you want to refer to is your business, and you are also welcome to share them, if done politely. What I take issue with is your blanket condemnation of those whose beliefs differ from yours.

When you condemn others as being "presumptuous" and "arrogant" for believing something that goes against what you admit is merely your opinion, it seems to me that the presumption and arrogance lie in a different quarter.
Title: Re: Survey #4
Post by ThudanBlunder on Mar 11th, 2008, 10:41am

on 03/10/08 at 15:52:08, Icarus wrote:
When you condemn others as being "presumptuous" and "arrogant" for believing something that goes against what you admit is merely your opinion, it seems to me that the presumption and arrogance lie in a different quarter.

This is rather rich, coming as it does from a person who sets such great store by his own opinions. Whereas I find nothing wrong with criticizing a nebulous group of leaders, the alacrity with which you often criticize individual posters amply demonstrates that, unburdened by modesty, you assume a moral authority which you simply do not possess in this forum. I suggest you confine your sanctimonious posturing to your worship of 'God or whatever else you want to' worship.

Below is another example of the bullying manner in which you operate, a Freudian slip bluntly disposing of an unfortunate visitor who does not measure up to your standards:


on 03/31/05 at 18:53:23, Icarus wrote:
If there is one thing that I will not tolerate, it is someone with an overinflated sense of their own worth who tries to prop up their ego by being insulting to others. Some of your posts here and elsewhere seem to push this boundary strongly, or cross it.
 
The royal 'we'? Non, l'etat, c'est moi!

What you will or will not tolerate is irrelevant to the smooth functioning of this forum and should remain a private matter between you and your dominatrix.

Beware the Ides of March.
Title: Re: Survey #4
Post by Master of Everything 42 on Mar 12th, 2008, 5:04pm
i am atheist, and everyone knows, and they dont care
Title: Re: Survey #4
Post by Icarus on Mar 21st, 2008, 4:34pm
It's been 10 days, and no one has responded to ThudanBlunder's attack. I have to wonder why.

Is it because you do not see what is wrong with his statements? I suppose the bigotry in his earlier post that I quoted was somewhat hard to see. Not because it was hidden - it is a textbook example - but because this bigotry is so common, people don't even notice it. I assumed at the time it was just an oversight, but ThudanBlunder's replies make it clear the bigotry is deep-seated.

If you cannot see it, a key component of bigotry is the denigration of people by group. The bigot defines a group of people, then assigns a negative character trait to the group that is neither a consequence of the group's definition, nor strongly supported by evidence as being universal. This is exactly what T&B does: his group is "religions or their representatives actually claiming to represent God". By conservative estimate, this describes the religious beliefs of at least half the world's population. If you loosen the interpretation of "God", then it raises to at least 90%. But even if you accept T&B's claim to only refer to a "nebulous group of leaders", this does not excuse the expression from being bigoted. This "nebulous group" clearly contains many people T&B has never had contact with. There are many reasons that might lead them to believe their religion represents God. Yet he denigrates them for one of his own imagining, and declares there is nothing wrong with this. That is the nature of bigotry.

He then, somewhat ironically, attacks me for criticizing individual posters. I certainly have done so. But my criticisms have always been about things they gave definite evidence of in these forums. I have never accused them of behaviors and attitudes I dreamed up. And contrary to his assertions, I have never criticized anyone in an effort to build myself up. Rather my criticisms have always been directed at preventing, or at least moderating, problems for the forum, most particularly flame wars. Please follow the link to T&B's supposed example of my bullying. Read the whole thread and judge for yourself whether or not the comment was justified, and whether my behavior in that thread was bullying. For an even better understanding, you should look to other posts by the pair in question at that time, as I was responding to things in more than that one thread. Compare the insults they gave to those of srn347. Fortunately, these two were not really of like mind with him, even though their initial remarks hold a similar flavor. Both are still regular posters on this forum (the godfather234 now goes by the name CowsRUs).

More generally, if you will look, you will see that I have not insulted or otherwise taken strenuous exception to anyone except when they had already been insulting others, or engaging in other intentionally malicious activities. Note too, that when they turned their insults on me, I let them. It was only when they chose to attack others that I took them to task. Does this sound like the behavior of a bully?

Is the reason you chose not to respond is that you do not believe bigotry to be a problem? I should hope that everyone would know better than this, even T&B, who instead will deny that his actions are bigotry. But just in case: it is hard to find a sordid episode in world history that did not have bigotry at its heart. Every religious conflict, every persecution, perhaps every war is the result of bigotry. Bigotry allows people to view others as inferior. And if they are inferior, then they don't deserve the same things as the bigot. Therefore the bigot feels justified in ill-using others.

Perhaps you do not respond because you feel it is not your fight? Or perhaps you fear to turn T&B's ill will on yourself? Such were the attitudes of many when Hitler began his persecution of the Jews and the many other ills he committed. ‘The only thing necessary for the triumph [of evil] is for good men to do nothing.’ - Edmund Burke.

Whatever the case for your lack of reply, I no longer care. I am tired of putting up with nonsense like this, and will visit this site no more. I'm sure this will make T&B happy. But I wish the rest of you good luck.
Title: Re: Survey #4
Post by denis on Mar 21st, 2008, 5:47pm
Just saw this today for the first time... It seems to me that T&B has denigrated individuals at some times or other which had nothing to do with the smooth operation of this board... A case in point:


on 09/06/07 at 01:58:02, ThudanBlunder wrote:
I answered my own question because my answer appeared to differ from Eigenray's.
I quoted my answer in order to give a specific example with p = 2/3, q = 1/3

You would have realized this if you had listened to Mummy and taken your Ritalin before posting.



on 03/11/08 at 10:41:34, ThudanBlunder wrote:
the alacrity with which you often criticize individual posters amply demonstrates that, unburdened by modesty, you assume a moral authority which you simply do not possess in this forum.



English is not my first language but I believe the expression goes like "People who live in glass houses should not throw stones"

I haven't been here long enough to see what is simmering under the surface. For what its worth, It does not seem to me that Icarus's remarks are usually made to build himself up or to impose a moral authority. Admittedly, he does challenge assumptions on a regular basis, but I feel it is usually done in a polite way (from what I have seen).

His challenge of T&B opinions in this thread was perhaps too close to the line but I assumed (perhaps wrongly) that T&B and Icarus were familiar enough with each other to have these types of baits once in awhile ... not unlike buddies who try to one up the other without repercussions to their relationship. (Somewhat like Asimov and Arthur C. Clark insulting each other routinely at the Science Fiction writers conventions ... all while keeping a smile on their faces as this is done in jest).

In any case, it's a shame to see Icarus leave over this .... I valued his contributions as well as T&B's.
Title: Re: Survey #4
Post by Aryabhatta on Mar 21st, 2008, 6:02pm
Yes, I hope Icarus does not leave too.

As for not responding to this thread, I usually keep away from such discussions. Not sure about the reasons other people had.
Title: Re: Survey #4
Post by rmsgrey on Mar 21st, 2008, 8:42pm
When time is limited, battles must be chosen.

In the past 10 days, I have spent the time devoted to forum arguments in the forum where I'm a moderator, which responsibility gives it priority.
Title: Re: Survey #4
Post by SMQ on Mar 22nd, 2008, 7:21am

on 03/21/08 at 16:34:10, Icarus wrote:
It's been 10 days, and no one has responded to ThudanBlunder's attack. I have to wonder why.

I initially didn't feel it was my place to step into a dispute apparently between two "senior" members of this community.  You're a difficult person to reas sometimes, Icarus, and I didn't think you would welcome my defense.  For being mistaken in that judgment I sincerely apologize.  Had I seen T&B's edit of the 16th, I would have spoken up anyway as I feel it clearly crosses the bounds of normal decency usually maintained around here, but seeing as it was an edit, rather than a new post, I was unaware of it until just now.

T&B: Since you've been around here a while, you're no doubt familiar with my low level of tolerance for ad-hominem attacks, even before I was asked to be a moderator.  I have written elsewhere of my praise for the generally respectful and open tone of discussions around here, and I largely credit towr and Icarus for maintaining and encouraging that tone while they were the only active moderators.  Icarus may be rather sure of himself, but, for myself, I would not say I've seen him cross the line from confidence to arrogance, nor have I ever seen him attack anyone personally the way you attack him above.  Whether it's my place or not, I feel you're the one out of line there, not Icarus.

--SMQ
Title: Re: Survey #4
Post by towr on Mar 22nd, 2008, 7:33am

on 03/21/08 at 16:34:10, Icarus wrote:
It's been 10 days, and no one has responded to ThudanBlunder's attack. I have to wonder why.

Is it because you do not see what is wrong with his statements?
His last post was a bit .. unreal. Honestly, I really didn't know what to say at it. (And it also changed over several edits)
I figured the thread would die, time passes, and people forget.


Quote:
Perhaps you do not respond because you feel it is not your fight? Or perhaps you fear to turn T&B's ill will on yourself? Such were the attitudes of many when Hitler began his persecution of the Jews and the many other ills he committed.
..
This is not a debate/argument/shouting-match of holocaust proportions.


Quote:
‘The only thing necessary for the triumph [of evil] is for good men to do nothing.’ - Edmund Burke.
When every issue is made to be one of apocaliptic proportions, it's no wonder good men don't do anything.




Quote:
This is exactly what T&B does: his group is "religions or their representatives actually claiming to represent God". By conservative estimate, this describes the religious beliefs of at least half the world's population.
I don't think many religious groups claim to have a phone-line connection to god and to speak his divine word directly, and few act like it. Those that do act like that, I would fully endorse calling presumptuous and arrogant, at least as long as they're part of a religion that posits God's ways are unfathomable or don't substantiate their claim in some way.
Frankly; speaking for anyone, god or not, is presumptuous, unless they gave express permission for you to do so. At best you can give your thoughts on what they might think, based on the best interpretation of past revelation (which is what most religions do, afaik). There is always room for error there; there must be, for your faults not to reflect badly on whom you 'speak for'.
Saying something like "When fags die God smiles" is an insult to God; or at least to any God that doesn't deserve insult.




Quote:
Whatever the case for your lack of reply, I no longer care. I am tired of putting up with nonsense like this, and will visit this site no more. I'm sure this will make T&B happy. But I wish the rest of you good luck.
Well, you'll be missed. I suppose there's no use to try and dissuade you, since you won't be back to see it.
Title: Re: Survey #4
Post by Three Hands on Mar 22nd, 2008, 8:10am

on 03/21/08 at 16:34:10, Icarus wrote:
It's been 10 days, and no one has responded to ThudanBlunder's attack. I have to wonder why.


My reasons are twofold. Firstly, that I did not see the remarks until now, since I am finding less and less time to be online on a regular basis.

However, even had I seen the remarks, I do not believe it would be my place to step into the argument, at least not at the level it was at. From what I saw, both of you were getting at each other - perhaps a little less eloquently or subtly in ThudanBlunder's case - but I believe both of you are capable of seeing that some of the comments were getting a bit too personal and insulting, and step back from it as I have seen you both do in the past.  At the very least, merely being an occasional visitor to the site these days, I don't believe any intervention from myself would be welcome between two of the senior moderators.
Title: Re: Survey #4
Post by ThudanBlunder on Mar 22nd, 2008, 9:14pm
May I remind you all of the following chronology:

1. This being an open forum, I post a (contentious) personal opinion.
2. Icarus disagrees, distorts, denigrates (straw man attempt).
3. I respond politely.
4. Icarus switches to an ad hominem attack.
5. I respond in kind.
6. Icarus threatens to stop playing and take his ball home because nobody got crushed to death in the stampede to defend him.
7. Everybody comes out in sympathy for Icarus and Thud is the bad guy.

Oh well, it's not the end of the world. Perhaps people shouldn't take themselves so seriously.  ::)
Title: Re: Survey #4
Post by SMQ on Mar 23rd, 2008, 5:32am
Disclaimer: I don't claim to be speaking for anyone but myself, least-of-all Icarus.  Everything written herein should be taken as my personal opinion, nothing more.


on 03/22/08 at 21:14:34, ThudanBlunder wrote:
1. This being an open forum, I post a (contentious) personal opinion.

Parts of that post -- the parts to which Icarus responded -- can be read more as a statement of the facts as you see them then as your opinion.  It was your apparent statement of your view as fact that Icarus took issue with.


Quote:
2. Icarus disagrees, distorts, denigrates (straw man attempt).

He misunderstood your intent, perhaps, and took personal offense where I doubt you intended any, but I see no deliberate attempt at distortion in his post -- he appears to have been responding to his honest interpretation of your words.


Quote:
3. I respond politely.

Your response opens with a definite needling tone toward one who has already shown himself to be offended.  Polite, perhaps, but hardly tactful.


Quote:
4. Icarus switches to an ad hominem attack.

He needled you back after you needled him.  You both seem to have had a hand in turning the general argument personal.  Just as I find it reasonable to read your first post as a statement of opinion rather than fact, I find it reasonable to read this post of Icarus as an attack on your argument -- that it overstates its case to the point of condradicting itself -- rather than on your character.  Without clear intent I prefer to give the benefit of the doubt to both of you.


Quote:
5. I respond in kind.

You upped the ante considerably.  Icarus' attack, whether it was intended as against your argument or your character, was at least still couched in the terms of discourse; yours was blatant.  Moreover, it is at odds with how Icarus seems to be generally regarded in these forums.  So far as I know, you're the only one to have found offense in the posts of his you quoted.


Quote:
6. Icarus threatens to stop playing and take his ball home because nobody got killed in the stampede to defend him.

Indeed, and I'm as befuddled by his reaction there as I am by your open hostility in the previous post.  Neither one fits with what I thought was going on in this thread.


Quote:
7. Everybody comes out in sympathy for Icarus and Thud is the bad guy.

To be fair, I'm the only one who has criticized your post.  Towr called it "unreal," and no one else has mentioned it at all.  I think the general consensus is that it would be a "bad thing" if Icarus truly left these forums for good, but I'm certainly not blaming you for that -- the decision to leave, or not, is entirely his, and as I said above, seems to me to have come as much out of left field as your post which precipitated it.


Quote:
Oh well, it's not the end of the world. Perhaps people shouldn't take themselves so seriously.  ::)

Now there's something I'm often rightly accused of. ;)

--SMQ
Title: Re: Survey #4
Post by Hippo on Mar 23rd, 2008, 11:10am
I rarely read these parts of forum when we don't riddle but just talk.
It's because my poor understanding of English text.
The discussions about religion is the field I was very scared off as it's often taken prsonally.

I have actually ignored the long responses ... .

I will miss Icarus. It seemed to me TB could be more polite.

But my poor English disqualifies me from judging (even if I want to).
Title: Re: Survey #4
Post by JiNbOtAk on Mar 24th, 2008, 8:38pm
Wow, some people could really get riled up over some post someone else made over the Internet. Truth be told, I did read T&B's denigrating (allegedly) comments, and I chose not to reply. Not because I agree with him, but because I was waiting for Icarus' response. ( Let's face it, Icarus can be eloquent in his affront, and it's always fun to read ).

Actually, whenever we have a battle of the mods ( usually it's between towr and Icarus ) , the rest of us stand back and enjoy the show. ( ok, sometimes Grimbal provided comic relief ) When this battle ( argument / discourse / war ? ) started, I believe most of us did the same thing. It's quite unreal, as towr said, that Icarus chose to take these arguments really personally, to the extent of leaving this forum for good. ( We've had good members leaving before, but I think it's a first for a mod to do so ).

Icarus, you will be missed. T&B, no issues from me.

p/s : Didn't expect such a bombastic response when I started this thread.
Title: Re: Survey #4
Post by towr on Mar 25th, 2008, 1:53am

on 03/24/08 at 20:38:01, JiNbOtAk wrote:
( We've had good members leaving before, but I think it's a first for a mod to do so )
There's also James Fingas (he was made moderator at the same time as Icarus and I).
Title: Re: Survey #4
Post by Hippo on Mar 25th, 2008, 3:13am
I have not been here in the same time James Fingas responded. Did he declared to leave or just wasn't been seen for a long long time?
Allways pleasure to read his posts when some ancient topic reappears.
Title: Re: Survey #4
Post by towr on Mar 25th, 2008, 6:20am

on 03/25/08 at 03:13:17, Hippo wrote:
I have not been here in the same time James Fingas responded. Did he declared to leave or just wasn't been seen for a long long time?
He just left one new year's day. Only much later he's been back once or twice, and explained that the forum just took too much of his time and he had decided to make a clean break.
Title: Re: Survey #4
Post by Hippo on Mar 25th, 2008, 9:26am
Yes, I can understand his decission ... it would be very nice to be able to filter out all the topics I am not interested at ... currently my favorits are (bulb, how far can a track go and radiocative coins ... :))
Title: Re: Survey #4
Post by ssa on May 26th, 2008, 7:45am
Catholic here...
Title: Re: Survey #4
Post by ChrisPBacon on Jun 20th, 2008, 12:34pm

on 03/12/08 at 17:04:39, Master of Everything 42 wrote:
i am atheist, and everyone knows, and they dont care

its true... i know him  ;D i think... :-/
Title: Re: Survey #4
Post by drdyl111 on Oct 2nd, 2008, 5:53pm
I follow my own belief system. Right now, it's mostly Christian, though slightly different. I haven't thought of a name for it yet though.

I'm stuck between Dylanism and Delusion.
Title: Re: Survey #4
Post by Quasar on Aug 9th, 2011, 2:10pm
I am orthodox
Title: Re: Survey #4
Post by SMQ on Aug 10th, 2011, 3:13am
Orthodox what if I might ask?

--SMQ
Title: Re: Survey #4
Post by Quasar on Aug 13th, 2011, 7:05am
Eastern Orthodox (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eastern_Orthodox_Church), like the majority of the romanians.
Title: Re: Survey #4
Post by jhian on Nov 3rd, 2011, 10:17pm
RELIGION is not important,helping others in difficult situation is important.


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