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        general >> psychology >> Why Psychology is Hard
        
(Message started by: James Fingas on Nov 18^th, 2002, 10:27am)

Title: Why Psychology is Hard
Post by James Fingas on Nov 18^th, 2002, 10:27am

In this short post, I will delve into the problems of psychology, and try to convince you that psychology is, by its very nature, a very difficult thing to understand.

Of course, there are some things about psychology that are easy to understand. People like getting what they want; people don't like getting hurt; etc. These are all very easy to understand from a completely logical point of view. However, there are (and, as I will argue, there must be) things about the human psyche that are very complex. Some examples: hurting people we like, helping people we don't know, posting to forums when we don't understand the topic, etc.

To start with, the human psyche is most easily viewed as the most effective tool for the job (based on the principle of evolution). Whatever is the best tradeoff between efficiency, simplicity, robustness, etc is what ended up in the human psyche. Some things are very simple: when we get hungry, we eat. When we get scared, we run or fight. This matches the evolutionary axiom very well. However, when we come to human interaction with other humans, the complexity of the human psyche brings logical deduction to a halt. I propose that no system of psychological understanding can ever be called "complete", because the human mind is not capable of understanding its own system of motivation.

Even more than this, I propose that this is inevitable--a human mind that could be understood by another human mind would be a complete failure. The reason for this is based on the struggle of give-and-take that must occur within human society.

This understanding came upon me recently, as I played the game "Clue". For those people not familiar with the game, you play with a number of players from 3 to 6, who are each dealt different cards. There are three types of cards: Suspects, Weapons, and Rooms. Three cards (one of each type) are kept by the dealer, and indicate the crime that took place (eg. Mr Green with the Knife in the Ballroom). While playing the game, you make guesses about which crime actually took place, and others must refute those guesses if they can (for instance, if I guess "Prof. Plum with the Knife in the Ballroom", then the person with the Professor Plum card must refute me, showing me the card).

You play the game, not knowing what cards the other players have, but having your suspicions, and also having guesses about what they suspect you have. If somebody makes a guess that you can refute in two ways, you must know which card will be more useful to them--for instance, there may be one card that they suspect you have, and another that they don't. You show them the card they already suspect you have, to reduce their overall amount of information. The more you know about what the other players know, then the more information you can harvest from the refutations that are made. Also, if you know what the weapon is, you should continue guessing other weapons, so that other people don't know that you know what the weapon is. It boils down to this: as in most games, if your strategy is always the same, and an opposing player learns it, you are in serious trouble!

This rather long story was meant to illustrate that any sufficiently simple motivation strategy for a person is doomed to fail--others will understand the strategy and can then manipulate that person, taking advantage of their complete predictability. Because of this, it is better for a person to have complex motivations, and random actions. Of course, there still will be people who rise above the occasion, and understand people well enough to control them (most of the time). Thankfully, nobody who fully understands everyone's psychology has come around and united the world under an iron fist. Basically, being unpredictable is an advantage!

That is not completely true, as sometimes it pays to be predictable. If you are tradesman dealing with many customers who have access to each other through word-of-mouth, then you must always be motivated by the highest level of professional integrity. On an even more basic level, human society would certainly fall apart if it became too difficult to understand what other people will do. Therefore, the human psyche must delicately balance the need to be predictable, so that human interactions can be smooth enough to facilitate social development, and the need to be unpredictable, so that no single person can have too much of an edge over others.

Here is a thought from the movie "A Beautiful Mind". Recall the scene in the bar where John Nash is talking to his friends. If all the guys go for the "prettiest" girl, then none of them could win--everyone is equal, and everyone loses. However, if one person's strategy was to guess what the other guys were going to do, and go for the second prettiest girl (that the others will ignore), then he has a natural advantage over the guys with the simpler strategy.

Many aspects of life are this way. For instance, if everybody decides that taking Highway 401 into Toronto in rush hour is the best way, then a person taking highway #2 will have a huge advantage. It pays to be able to guess what other people will do, and it pays to be "unguessable". This leads to smart, but complicated people--and that is why psychology is hard.

Title: Re: Why Psychology is Hard
Post by mr.e on Dec 15^th, 2002, 6:44am

interesting, you then get this chain of thought:

"everyone else will think to go in to highway, but everyone knows that that highway is always packed, so i will go into the highway anyway"

and so on. it can be just better to flip a coin... or get a helicam view :)

Title: Re: Why Psychology is Hard
Post by James Fingas on Dec 16^th, 2002, 10:26am

Good point, Mr e

I think once you get to the point that you can recognize an opportunity to benfit by acting differently (you recognize that going on the 401 is the "standard thought", and that you can benefit by taking Highway 2), then you will always be further ahead. Even if the situation were to change and Highway 2 were packed instead of the 401, you would realize what the best action would be.

Title: Re: Why Psychology is Hard
Post by maryl on Mar 27^th, 2003, 9:54am

Very interesting stuff; I have to tell you James-I've taken Highway 2 instead of the 401 and it takes a lot longer, and has many more stoplights to contend with. You give up on it after awhile and go back on the 401.

Title: Re: Why Psychology is Hard
Post by Richard Hlywka on Apr 9^th, 2003, 10:58pm

Why is psychology hard. This coming from a 3rd year psychology student, who has continued to search for their lives, and the ones they left behind. tear. We do have our own highways. We do crowd. We do also communicate. We know ourselves. and our own truths if we can listen to them. But our truths are jaded but the truths we bring in. Sad part is, we jade other truths as well. Then comes neurosis. And individuals that refuse to change, or claim they are right over others. Truth be told, have yet to here it. Not necessarily though. But Lets just say it's better to "prime" for a let down, then "prime" for a blind failure. Once you know that not all is true, then you can strive to find the truths. Use the same techniques you would for any "science", people always said it wasn't though, boy were they wrong. Your whole life is a science. Trust your self. And your senses. Eventually, with time. there may even be a time when you can learn to know when your senses are not telling you the truth. And there they were lost... Sorry guys. I basically put this big ramble because I wanted to find James. I assume that he is the same James of my past. Apartly the ties that bond still bond... Anywayz. hlywkar@hotmail.com ... course. You could read a book. Tangible that they are. To find the answers you seek. Maybe you will find they truth behind your life. For those others, theres always psychology (and other avenues as well). PEace to all. cheers. ;D

Title: Re: Why Psychology is Hard
Post by usdragonfly on Jan 18^th, 2004, 11:01pm

[i][/i] Even more than this, I propose that this is inevitable--a human mind that could be understood by another human mind would be a complete failure. The reason for this is based on the struggle of give-and-take that must occur within human society.

with this statement being made i must say i diagree. i think we've come alot closer to understanding the human mind over the past couple of centuries!
it's not that we haven't learned the human mind and how it works, it's that there are so many different ways that it can work. the mind works differently for every person. that's what makes this world so uniqe.
thats why, in my opinion, psychology is hard.

i'm not sure if i explained that well enough. what i'm saying is that if you had one person that you studied his mind and his thoughts and reactions his whole life, eventually you would understand how his minds worked. but once he dies and you start trying to understand someone else's mind with the information from the first person you would be lost becasue not one person is alike in the way he or she thinks.
therefore we have the ability to understand the human mind, but only as individuals.

Title: Re: Why Psychology is Hard
Post by towr on Jan 19^th, 2004, 1:28am

I don't really think everybody is very different from everybody else. There are many classes of very similar people, and if you understand one of them you pretty much understand the rest of that class.
And there are plenty of people that are very skilled in manipulating others, which I imagine would take some understanding of their targets mind..

Title: Re: Why Psychology is Hard
Post by Three Hands on Apr 25^th, 2004, 7:27am

I think that the biggest problem you'd end up with in psychology is due to your own prejudices and beliefs. Generally speaking, I tend to find that most problems I may have relating to other people would be due to them having a different outlook on life from myself, and so I would be unable to understand why they would do something while I do not. Our outlook on the world is going to be coloured by our own beliefs and prejudices (which may well be based on nature and nurture, but I'll leave that one for the psychiatrists ;) ). After all, a lot of Freud's "errors" in psychological writings have been attributed to the small range of sample cases that he studied (generally middle-class women), and his own perceptions of what the answers should be.

Another problem with psychology is that it is scientifically examining behviour, which I generally prefer to believe is based on free choice, rather than pre-determined reactions. Although I will concede that there are various reactions which seem in-built, most of them serve a role in survival, and so would generally be preferable to the alternative. However, things such as taste in music, art, etc., while there are some common trends among populations, I would generally believe to be more down to individual disposition than wide-ranging statistical probability

Title: Re: Why Psychology is Hard
Post by Kedirech on Jul 5^th, 2004, 11:18pm

There are two main flaws in thinking when it comes to pshycology,
1) everyone thinks like me
2) noone else thinks like me
:)
But I could be wrong ;D

Title: Re: Why Psychology is Hard
Post by Jesse on Aug 12^th, 2005, 6:10pm

Your thinking in a too linear fasion! If a dichotomy exists between the predictable and the unpredictable then we could establish a spectrum between these binary opposites. Then apply psychological models like psychoanalysis to determine which path on this specturm is most likely.
If the world is so random how is it that you can be sure your money is worth anything.
Yes we like to think were all unique individuals with individual thought, in reality were constructed and will react to given information in a "logical" way. Now im ignoring abnomal psychology because i dont think that fits into our range of discussion. A phsysically fit person will react rationally to the information they are given. That rational action may not be rational to another person but through numberous methods can be rationalised by the individual.
By acting rationally we act predictably, you determine the methods that the person is using to rationalise and you will know their "choice".
Its only becaue of populist paradigm that we think were all working as individuals.

Title: Re: Why Psychology is Hard
Post by watwf on Jun 22^nd, 2007, 5:29pm

on 11/18/02 at 10:27:35, James Fingas wrote:

because the human mind is not capable of understanding its own system of motivation.

I'm challenging this with anyone on my level. Just for fun.

Otherwise, I'm not officially backing up my affirmation.

There's a philosophical and, of course, psychological correspondent to the theories of mr. Thurston. More, the basic pieces add up to a finite system that keeps reproducing itself, covering all variety.

Psychology is not concerned with the exact content of people's minds, so being able to work out the basic patterns, from this stated point of view, hits the purpose. A map of every possibility within humans could be done in theory, if infinite computing power would be available, but for now psychology just gathers probability and screenings.

The rest is just raw power and mathematics, used to find out as much as possible about something in a specified frame.

And last, as always, there's much more knowledge going on and available then people know. Truths searched for millenniums were solved in the collective individual since the dawn of today's man. Psychology is obsolete as a thing in itself and far surpassed by it's object.

Title: Re: Why Psychology is Hard
Post by MathsForFun on Aug 9^th, 2010, 5:13am

Psychology is hard because unless you have shared somebody's life in full (programmes watched, people spoken to, experiences etc), you do not know what has shaped their thought patterns.

Title: Re: Why Psychology is Hard
Post by fizyka on Dec 30^th, 2011, 1:55pm

My girlfriend likes psychology very much. She is just like programmed to do this things - she likes that, so she is good at it - Just like most of You guys are good in riddles, because You like them :) - (I think)

Title: Re: Why Psychology is Hard
Post by alien2 on Jan 7^th, 2012, 12:31pm

I am seeing two psychiatrists and they’re both crazy.

http://i666.photobucket.com/albums/vv28/alien624837/th_crazyblue_01.gif

Title: Re: Why Psychology is Hard
Post by JiNbOtAk on Jan 8^th, 2012, 9:30pm

They must be..if they're willing to see you. ::)

Title: Re: Why Psychology is Hard
Post by alien2 on Jan 15^th, 2012, 5:17am

Quote:

Why Psychology is Hard

Psychology is not that hard. Just sit quietly and pretend that you are listening to your patient. When the time is up, collect $100. Cappuccino is a good idea.

Title: Re: Why Psychology is Hard
Post by MathsForFun on Jan 17^th, 2012, 5:02am

on 01/15/12 at 05:17:12, alien2 wrote:

Psychology is not that hard. Just sit quietly and pretend that you are listening to your patient. When the time is up, collect $100. Cappuccino is a good idea.

Which is best then - psychiatrist, dog, or goldfish?

Title: Re: Why Psychology is Hard
Post by alien2 on Jan 17^th, 2012, 8:33am

on 01/17/12 at 05:02:36, MathsForFun wrote:

Which is best then - psychiatrist, dog, or goldfish?

I'm a cat person. Cats alleviate stress and anxiety, and potentially reduce the risk of heart attack in humans by 30 percent.

Title: Re: Why Psychology is Hard
Post by towr on Jan 17^th, 2012, 10:33am

Unless you're allergic to cats or vehemently dislike them, in which case they do the opposite, causing stress and anxiety and potentially (I'd imagine) increasing the risk of heart attack. :P

Is the gold fish made of real gold?

Title: Re: Why Psychology is Hard
Post by alien2 on Mar 9^th, 2012, 6:05am

on 01/08/12 at 21:30:54, JiNbOtAk wrote:

They must be..if they're willing to see you. ::)

It is a funny remark, but it also happens to be true. I've been seeing psychiatrists for the past 7 years and nothing has changed (http://www.whale.to/a/zyprexa1.html); except that one of them managed to get rid of me. The other two are not so lucky. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/What_About_Bob%3F)

Title: Re: Why Psychology is Hard
Post by wade32 on Apr 4^th, 2012, 8:57pm

on 01/15/12 at 05:17:12, alien2 wrote:

Psychology is not that hard. Just sit quietly and pretend that you are listening to your patient. When the time is up, collect $100. Cappuccino is a good idea.

Lol! Also, say the phrase, "How does that make you feel?" a lot!

Title: Re: Why Psychology is Hard
Post by algeriano on Dec 20^th, 2013, 2:27pm

on 01/07/12 at 12:31:38, alien2 wrote:

I am seeing two psychiatrists and they’re both crazy.

hihihihihi i see then...they made you crazy too hein? ;D

Title: Re: Why Psychology is Hard
Post by onlinb2e on Jan 12^th, 2014, 7:52am

It's your psychology which drive you crazy about psychology.

Title: Re: Why Psychology is Hard
Post by goprel on Apr 10^th, 2014, 11:04am

Psychology is not hard. I would say it is complex. But it is natural because everything is complex what is related to human :)

Title: Re: Why Psychology is Hard
Post by movie4fun on Aug 18^th, 2014, 7:02pm

who says its hard? it mostly based on theories and its not anything like exact science.

Title: Re: Why Psychology is Hard
Post by gintarina on Feb 2^nd, 2015, 1:56am

Psychology is easy when you have intensity to help people. Than you can easily find the language with any person