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Topic: Who came first egg or chicken!!!!!!!!!! (Read 4399 times) |
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checker
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Who came first egg or chicken!!!!!!!!!!
« on: Feb 19th, 2007, 3:43am » |
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All types of answers are invited to this forum.......................
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towr
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Re: Who came first egg or chicken!!!!!!!!!!
« Reply #1 on: Feb 19th, 2007, 3:54am » |
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Define chicken and egg in the context of the question. The answer follows from the definition.
Certainly eggs existed before chickens. Dinosaurs laid eggs, as well as many earleir life forms. But if you mean "What was first, the chicken egg or the chicken" Well, then it depends on whether you define a chicken egg as "an egg from which a chicken hatches" or "an egg laid by a chicken". Both definitions are used by different people.
In as much as there is a first 'chicken egg' and a first 'chicken' (which evolution tells us there isn't). Then in the first case the egg was first, in the second case the chicken was first.
In reality there's a large grey era of not-quite-although-possibly-chickens and not-quite-although-possibly-chicken-eggs between what we clearly recognise as chickens and chicken eggs, and their ancesters which we'd recognise as clearly not. And various people would lay the distinction at different points along the line.
If anyone wants to beat this dead horse any further, be my guest.
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| « Last Edit: Feb 19th, 2007, 3:58am by towr » |
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JiNbOtAk
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Re: Who came first egg or chicken!!!!!!!!!!
« Reply #2 on: Feb 19th, 2007, 5:25pm » |
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Why is the question always about chicken ? It would be just as acceptable if we were to question which one came first, the egg or the duck, the egg or the goose, the egg or the snake...( the list becomes endless )
What about animals who gave birth ? Major religions ( Islam, Christian & Judaism ) believes that the first man - Adam, was created as an adult. Is that true for all the animals in the animal kingdom ?
Any comments ?
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ThudnBlunder
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Re: Who came first egg or chicken!!!!!!!!!!
« Reply #3 on: Feb 19th, 2007, 6:00pm » |
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on Feb 19th, 2007, 3:43am, checker wrote:| All types of answers are invited to this forum....................... |
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The chicken; although the egg was leading it didn't know what to do when it came to the road.
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| « Last Edit: Feb 20th, 2007, 5:50am by ThudnBlunder » |
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fiziwig
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Re: Who came first egg or chicken!!!!!!!!!!
« Reply #4 on: Feb 19th, 2007, 6:01pm » |
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If an animal hatched from an egg and that animal could properly be classified as a chicken then the egg from which it hatched came first. Something, which was "not quite" a chicken, laid an egg and from that egg came a chicken.
However, whether we define that egg as a "chicken egg" depends upon whether we classify the egg according to what laid it or according to what hatched from it.
Therefore the answer to the question depends entirely upon which criteria is used to define "chicken egg".
However, (as the question was originally framed), in asking if "the egg" came before "the chicken" the original question did not specify "chicken egg", but merely "egg". Therefore, regardless of how "chicken egg" is defined, "the egg" clearly came first.
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checker
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Re: Who came first egg or chicken!!!!!!!!!!
« Reply #5 on: Feb 19th, 2007, 9:07pm » |
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I hav deeply gone through the question and it was really confusing ...................seriously
What I meant with 'egg' was 'chickens egg' only........to mark the beginning of evolution the Egg might be the hav appeared first .............if thing it as hibrid development of some species.......or if we think in terms of adaption then Chicken might hav appeared first
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fiziwig
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Re: Who came first egg or chicken!!!!!!!!!!
« Reply #6 on: Feb 21st, 2007, 5:32pm » |
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Given that all life on earth was created by nanobiotic cloning by aliens from Alpha Centauri, clearly the cloned chicken came first. In fact, chicken 1.0 had no orifice for egg laying so it was actually not until chicken version 2.3 that the egg-laying mechanism made it past beta testing into the full production release.
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alien2
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Re: Who came first egg or chicken!!!!!!!!!!
« Reply #7 on: Jul 20th, 2014, 12:55pm » |
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Eggs have to be incubated, so I would guess that the chicken came first. The hen was lonely so from her rib God created a rooster.
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Lupin
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Re: Who came first egg or chicken!!!!!!!!!!
« Reply #8 on: Jul 20th, 2014, 9:56pm » |
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It says in the bible that God created all animals, so the chicken wins. Science says that the chicken evolved and at some time the chicken as we know it appeared and it must have come out of an egg, so the egg wins. I favor the latter. But the best answer was given by an ten year old kid: “The egg, of course. You have eggs for breakfast and chicken for dinner.”
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dudiobugtron
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Re: Who came first egg or chicken!!!!!!!!!!
« Reply #9 on: Jul 21st, 2014, 12:20am » |
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on Feb 19th, 2007, 3:54am, towr wrote:Define chicken and egg in the context of the question. The answer follows from the definition.
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If anyone wants to beat this dead horse any further, be my guest. |
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7 years late to the party, but I hope your invitation still stands! 
People usually talk about this question in the context of the egg or chicken in general. But what about a particular chicken, and its egg? The case isn't as clear cut as you might think initially.
Chickens reproduce in an interesting way. The female gathers and stores sperm with which to fertilise its ova when they are released. Obviously the ovum (what in humans we'd call 'the egg' - in chickens we usually call it 'the yolk') came first, but it doesn't have its trademark shell, and most people wouldn't consider the egg to be an egg yet at that stage. Once the yolk is released, it is fertilised, and then surrounded by the albumen and shell later on, before finally being laid.
The interesting part, of course, is that the chicken in the egg was conceived before the shell was put around it. Many people think that humans start being human at the moment of conception. Is this true for chickens too? If so, then the chicken therefore came before the egg.
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towr
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Re: Who came first egg or chicken!!!!!!!!!!
« Reply #10 on: Jul 21st, 2014, 8:53am » |
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That's an interesting take on the problem.
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towr
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Re: Who came first egg or chicken!!!!!!!!!!
« Reply #11 on: Jul 21st, 2014, 11:50am » |
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Also, the chicken came first alphabetically.
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rloginunix
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Re: Who came first egg or chicken!!!!!!!!!!
« Reply #12 on: Jul 21st, 2014, 9:16pm » |
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If we are to look at it using a scientific method I'd suggest reducing the situation to simplest terms.
In Number Theory that's digits which, according to certain rules, make up numbers which have certain properties.
In Physics it's quarks and gluons which, according to certain rules, make up protons and neutrons which, together with electrons, make up atoms which make up molecules which make up certain acids - DNA. A, C, G, T and so on.
I'm not a DNA specialist but I would compare the age of the "make-the-egg-shell" gene/marker with the age of the "chicken-species"* gene/marker. I think they count the number of mutations in a gene for that (but I could be wrong). Chickens are birds, birds descended from avian (theropod) dinosaurs so I imagine you would have to go pretty far back in time. But as we all know the dinosaur DNA has been extracted already, in the "Jurassic Park" ...
In any case, the oldest gene/marker answers the question.
* The reason I say this is because I saw a PBS Nova episode where the scientists have found the "Neanderthal DNA" in the modern Europeans which tells me that there have to be genes that are species specific.
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towr
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Re: Who came first egg or chicken!!!!!!!!!!
« Reply #13 on: Jul 21st, 2014, 10:11pm » |
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on Jul 21st, 2014, 9:16pm, rloginunix wrote:| * The reason I say this is because I saw a PBS Nova episode where the scientists have found the "Neanderthal DNA" in the modern Europeans which tells me that there have to be genes that are species specific. |
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That sounds self-contradictory. If those genes were species-specific, then you wouldn't find them in another species, i.e. in European homo sapiens.
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rmsgrey
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Re: Who came first egg or chicken!!!!!!!!!!
« Reply #14 on: Jul 22nd, 2014, 6:26am » |
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on Jul 21st, 2014, 10:11pm, towr wrote:
That sounds self-contradictory. If those genes were species-specific, then you wouldn't find them in another species, i.e. in European homo sapiens.
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Yeah, what they mean is that there's a gene pool which is associated with the Neanderthal (sub-)species, and a gene pool associated with (early) "modern humans" and it turns out that current-day modern humans have a lot of the genes that are in the Neanderthal gene pool, but not the early modern human gene pool - as much as 20% of the Neanderthal-specific gene pool may be in the modern population too.
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rloginunix
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Re: Who came first egg or chicken!!!!!!!!!!
« Reply #15 on: Jul 22nd, 2014, 2:35pm » |
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You are right, towr. What I meant to say didn't come out right. rmsgrey explained it better.
I wanted to say that the "Neanderthal DNA in modern homo sapiens" discovery tells me that there are genes (markers) that identify species uniquely. Without this observation my idea would never hatch.
Turtles, snakes, crocodiles, lizards (to name just a few) also lay hard shell eggs. So to make a unique positive identifications we would need a gene pool associated with just chickens.
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dudiobugtron
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Re: Who came first egg or chicken!!!!!!!!!!
« Reply #16 on: Jul 22nd, 2014, 5:07pm » |
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I'm pretty sure any set of genes which uniquely identified something as a chicken would not be present in its pre-chicken ancestors.
Is your suggestion though that some of them might be?
Also note there are probably many different sets of genes which would each lead to something laying hard-shelled eggs.
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| « Last Edit: Jul 22nd, 2014, 5:09pm by dudiobugtron » |
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towr
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Re: Who came first egg or chicken!!!!!!!!!!
« Reply #17 on: Jul 22nd, 2014, 11:02pm » |
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on Jul 22nd, 2014, 2:35pm, rloginunix wrote:| Turtles, snakes, crocodiles, lizards (to name just a few) also lay hard shell eggs. |
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I think most of those are all soft/leathery shelled eggs, not hard ones as in birds.
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according to http://www.ucmp.berkeley.edu/science/eggshell/eggshell1.php
Quote:Soft eggshell (Fig. 4): Most lizards, snakes, and tuataras lay soft eggs composed of an organic framework and poorly organized calcite crystals. These eggs collapse and shrivel after the animal hatches, and are therefore unlikely to be identified or even preserved in the fossil record.
Flexible eggshell (Fig. 5): Many amniotes, including some lizards, snakes, and turtles, lay eggs with flexible shells. These shells differ from soft shells because of their higher mineral content. Nevertheless, preservation of flexible eggs is also rare in the fossil record.
Rigid eggshell (Fig. 6): Some turtles and geckos, and all crocodilians, dinosaurs, and birds lay eggs with rigid eggshell. The calcite crystals form a relatively thick eggshell of interlocking shell units. Fossilization is more likely to occur in rigid eggshell because the crystalline calcium carbonate (calcite or aragonite) layer is stronger, more durable, and does not shrivel upon hatching. |
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Anyway, you don't need gene-markers to tell you that hard-shelled eggs (or any other kind) came before the chicken species.
But this won't tell you if the chicken-egg came before the chicken or vice versa.
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| « Last Edit: Jul 22nd, 2014, 11:25pm by towr » |
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rmsgrey
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Re: Who came first egg or chicken!!!!!!!!!!
« Reply #18 on: Jul 23rd, 2014, 5:29am » |
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on Jul 22nd, 2014, 5:07pm, dudiobugtron wrote:I'm pretty sure any set of genes which uniquely identified something as a chicken would not be present in its pre-chicken ancestors.
Is your suggestion though that some of them might be?
Also note there are probably many different sets of genes which would each lead to something laying hard-shelled eggs. |
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The thing is, the gene pool of "chickens" today is different from the gene pool of "chickens" 500 years ago, let alone the impossible-to-define "first population" of "chickens". Insofar as there is a "first chicken", there was a population of proto-chickens, with a gene pool containing all the genes of the first chicken, and those genes all happened to come together in one individual for the first time. that chicken may not even have reproduced, and it's almost certain that any offspring it did have were proto-chickens rather than chickens. It's only as the other alleles dropped out of the proto-chicken gene pool that chickens would reliably have other chickens as offspring.
Identifying species is known to be a hard problem.
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alien2
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Re: Who came first egg or chicken!!!!!!!!!!
« Reply #19 on: Jul 25th, 2014, 5:38am » |
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Quote:| Who came first egg or chicken!!!!!!!!!! |
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Neither. Bacteria-like organisms came first.
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JaneBD
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Re: Who came first egg or chicken!!!!!!!!!!
« Reply #20 on: Aug 3rd, 2014, 11:47am » |
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It's the EGGGGGG!
Explanation - Without the egg the chicken could not exist.
The egg could have come from another species of animal, therefore through evolution the chicken was born.
Overtime each animal produced from the egg would mutate slightly UNTIL it became a chicken!
Either that OR ... God made it hahash 
Sorry to any religious people ...
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JaneBD
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Re: Who came first egg or chicken!!!!!!!!!!
« Reply #21 on: Aug 3rd, 2014, 11:48am » |
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Also - aren't birds meant to have evolved from dinosaurs?
Well the one's that survived.
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thechickster
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Re: Who came first egg or chicken!!!!!!!!!!
« Reply #22 on: Aug 3rd, 2014, 4:57pm » |
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The never ending battle...... THE CHICKEN lol.
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JaneBD
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Re: Who came first egg or chicken!!!!!!!!!!
« Reply #23 on: Aug 5th, 2014, 2:57am » |
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How can it be the chicken - without the egg the chicken can't [b][/b]EGGIST[u][/u], it needs to be born first.
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JaneBD
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Re: Who came first egg or chicken!!!!!!!!!!
« Reply #24 on: Aug 7th, 2014, 4:54am » |
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OK I've got it ...
If you look in the dictionary
CHICKEN comes FIRST.
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