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Re: Riddle from bible...(math)  
« Reply #25 on: May 1st, 2007, 12:54am »
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oh, what did i start!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
 
it was a simply riddle i heard a math professor tell another during lunch while i was taking a test in the next room
 
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Re: Riddle from bible...(math)  
« Reply #26 on: May 1st, 2007, 2:54am »
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on May 1st, 2007, 12:54am, icon wrote:
oh, what did i start!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Yes, perhaps the discussion should be continued elsewhere.
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Re: Riddle from bible...(math)  
« Reply #27 on: May 1st, 2007, 4:41pm »
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Actually, since the riddle itself is answered, I see no reason why the discussion shouldn't be allowed to go wherever it will.
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Re: Riddle from bible...(math)  
« Reply #28 on: May 1st, 2007, 4:56pm »
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on May 1st, 2007, 4:41pm, Icarus wrote:
Actually, since the riddle itself is answered, I see no reason why the discussion shouldn't be allowed to go wherever it will.

Even in Easy?   Smiley
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Re: Riddle from bible...(math)  
« Reply #29 on: May 2nd, 2007, 12:18am »
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I would agree with Icarus. Along with his point that this riddle has been solved and anything else we add is not disturbing the flow, the other thread is a more "religious" debate. This, on the other hand, has evolved into a discussion relating to the integrity of the Bible.
 
On the question of the accuracy of pi, I would like to make another suggestion...
 
The reference appears twice in the Bible: 1 Kings 7 and 2 Chronickles 4. I'll quote the Kings version (verse 23):
 
"It was round, ten cubits from brim to brim, and five cubits high, and a line of thirty cubits measured its circumference."
 
However, if we read on a little you will note in verse 26:
 
"Its thickness was a handbreadth, and its brim was made like the brim of a cup, like the flower of a lily."
 
So the container is cylinderical with a brim extending outwards like the skirt of a bell or, as the verse actually says, like a lily. In other words, the main section had a circumference of 30 cubits, but the rim, which is wider than the main section, has a width of 10 cubits. It works for me.
 
As for creation, and I expect both mockery and loss of any morsels of crediblity I might have previously held, but I do believe in the literal creation in six days; plus the creation of the day of rest. I also believe in the age of mankind as chronicled in the genealogy of Jesus.
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Re: Riddle from bible...(math)  
« Reply #30 on: May 2nd, 2007, 1:51am »
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I wonder, Sir Col: What is your position with regards to the scientific explanations / theorems / measurements? I mean things (which I'm sure you're very familiar with) like carbon dating, size of the universe, fossils etc., that seem to contradict the biblical timeline.  
 
Some religious explanations I have previously heard go something like "a god who could create the world in six days could easily craft things to look like they're much older. We cannot, with our feeble human mind, fathom the reason." But to me, it seems less than satisfactory (given my own views of the matter, of course).
 
I just wonder how you stand on it.
 
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Re: Riddle from bible...(math)  
« Reply #31 on: May 2nd, 2007, 2:06am »
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on May 2nd, 2007, 12:18am, Sir Col wrote:
As for creation, and I expect both mockery and loss of any morsels of crediblity I might have previously held, but I do believe in the literal creation in six days; plus the creation of the day of rest. I also believe in the age of mankind as chronicled in the genealogy of Jesus.

Thus neatly demonstating the difference between 'verifiable' and 'certifiable'.  Grin
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Re: Riddle from bible...(math)  
« Reply #32 on: May 2nd, 2007, 6:17am »
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No mockery from me, Sir Col, despite my ... strong ... disagreement.  Apart from occasional teasing, I reserve my mockery for those who hold their beliefs and opinions unthinkingly and unexamined, and from what I've read from you here and elsewhere, I would find it difficult to put you in that camp.  Anyone who has taken the time and effort to come to their own conclusions and is willing to state those conclusions publicly has my respect, no matter my disagreement.
 
That said, I find I follow in the steps of my grandfather -- a geologist and co-author of a book on Christian understanding of evolution -- who said: both the Creation and the Bible are God's revelation to his people -- different forms of the same message.  If both are understood correctly there should be no conflict.
 
In that context I find it much more consistent with my understanding of the rest of God's revelation of himself to us to believe that the Bible is informing us through parable in Genesis, than that God would create a universe which appears on every scale to be much older than He tells us it is.  Nowhere in the Bible do I find any evidence of God being deceitful, or even intentionally ambiguous.  As I've said elsewhere, I approach the Bible with the assumption that God is trying to be clear, not esoteric.  On the other side, I'm willing to admit that it's possible that there's some gross human misunderstanding of the universe, but I find myself convinced that the preponderance of evidence is against a misunderstanding sufficiently fundamental to allow the reconciliation of scientific understanding and a 6000-year old Earth.
 
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Re: Riddle from bible...(math)  
« Reply #33 on: May 2nd, 2007, 6:53am »
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I, too, believe Genesis to be literal history
1. Because it's presented as history
2. Because Jesus cited it as history (Matt 19:4)
3.  Because, theologically, to discard creation is to discard the fall into sin. Then sickness, suffering and death are not, as the Bible teaches, the result and the curse of sin but natural.
 
As for God being deceitful by making the earth look old, it only fools those who don't trust God.
Hebrews 11 says "Now faith is being sure of what we hope for and certain of what we do not see. This is what the ancients were commended for.  
By faith we understand that the universe was formed at God’s command, so that what is seen was not made out of what was visible."
God didn't want to give us proof that he's our Father; he says Trust me. And he gave us a world that doesn't scream "Creation" but it does whisper it.  
As for God never being "deceitful or intentionally ambiguous," God put a lying spirit in the mouths of Zedekiah's prophets to lead him astray (I kings 22:23). Or how about 2 Kings 3, where God told Elisha to dig ditches around the city; God filled the ditches with water so that when the sun rose the water would look red like blood, and the enemy army would assume everyone was dead. God is not deceitful, but sometimes his purposes are served when those who don't trust him believe a lie.
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Re: Riddle from bible...(math)  
« Reply #34 on: May 2nd, 2007, 7:38am »
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That's that settled then.
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Re: Riddle from bible...(math)  
« Reply #35 on: May 2nd, 2007, 7:46am »
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on May 2nd, 2007, 6:53am, azalia wrote:
I, too, believe Genesis to be literal history
1. Because it's presented as history
2. Because Jesus cited it as history (Matt 19:4)
3.  Because, theologically, to discard creation is to discard the fall into sin. Then sickness, suffering and death are not, as the Bible teaches, the result and the curse of sin but natural.

 
Errr....
So, you beleive the bible as literal truth because:
1. It says so itself
2. It says so even twice
3. It's more comforting for you to believe so.
 
Hmmmm....  Lips Sealed
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Re: Riddle from bible...(math)  
« Reply #36 on: May 2nd, 2007, 8:16am »
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No, I was only responding to the question of whether Genesis is history or parable.
I have one set of reasons why I believe in God.
I have another set of reasons why I believe the Bible is God's Word.
I have another set of reasons why I interpret the Bible in the way that I do.
And I have another set of reasons why I'm not going to go into any of my reasons in this forum.
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Re: Riddle from bible...(math)  
« Reply #37 on: May 2nd, 2007, 8:29am »
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on May 2nd, 2007, 8:16am, azalia wrote:
I have one set of reasons why I believe in God.
I have another set of reasons why I believe the Bible is God's Word.
I have another set of reasons why I interpret the Bible in the way that I do.

I suspect they are sets that contain themselves.
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Re: Riddle from bible...(math)  
« Reply #38 on: May 2nd, 2007, 8:30am »
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on May 2nd, 2007, 6:53am, azalia wrote:
1. Because it's presented as history

No, it's presented as a story.  One with a striking similarity to many other stories of how the world began, some of which were already ancient (and well-known) by the time of Moses.  It seems very likely that the Israelites would have understood -- and been intended to understand -- the Creation story in that context.  The important part to them would have been the what, not the how of the story: that God created everything, and created us specially to have a relationship with Him; that when He created the world it was good; that, with Satan's help, we chose the "knowledge of good and evil" over the continuing presence of God.
 
Quote:
2. Because Jesus cited it as history (Matt 19:4)

Jesus cited the fact that God created us with gender in the context of a discussion on marriage.  He cited creation as fact, not the account as literal history.  Do you also believe that when Jesus said "There was a man who had two sons" in Matthew 21:28 that there actually was a historical man who had those two sons?
 
Quote:
3.  Because, theologically, to discard creation is to discard the fall into sin. Then sickness, suffering and death are not, as the Bible teaches, the result and the curse of sin but natural.

I agree -- the what of Genesis is one of the irreducible pillars of my faith -- but I don't see that viewing the creation account in Genesis as a story meant to make the important points memorable, rather than as a literal historical documentary, takes anything away from it theologically.  It doesn't matter to me how God created the universe and us within it, just that He did.
 
Quote:
Hebrews 11 says "Now faith is being sure of what we hope for and certain of what we do not see. This is what the ancients were commended for.  
By faith we understand that the universe was formed at God’s command, so that what is seen was not made out of what was visible."

Again, I agree with you, but don't see that my reading of Genesis takes anything away.
 
Quote:
God didn't want to give us proof that he's our Father; he says Trust me. And he gave us a world that doesn't scream "Creation" but it does whisper it.

But it "screams" age to anyone with a rational understanding of geology, chemistry, physics, climatology, astronomy -- hundreds, thousands of more specialized fields -- any basic understanding of scientific practice.  There are literally millions of experimental results which only make logical sense in the context of a universe multiple-billions of years old; and millions of predictions based on that theory which have been born out by experiment.
 
I've been told before by other believers in a literal Genesis that my faith in God needs to be stronger than my faith in science. I actually think that's a true statement, but I don't feel that they need necessarily be in conflict!  As Galileo famously stated: "I do not feel obliged to believe that the same God who has endowed us with sense, reason, and intellect has intended us to forgo their use."
 
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Re: Riddle from bible...(math)  
« Reply #39 on: May 2nd, 2007, 9:54am »
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on May 2nd, 2007, 6:53am, azalia wrote:
3.  Because, theologically, to discard creation is to discard the fall into sin. Then sickness, suffering and death are not, as the Bible teaches, the result and the curse of sin but natural.

And what's wrong with the idea that sickness, suffering and death are natural?
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Re: Riddle from bible...(math)   garden_of_eden.jpg
« Reply #40 on: May 2nd, 2007, 3:49pm »
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Interestingly, Grimbal, this point is precisely why I have to take the stand I do. I believe that the fall of man, the original sin, was a key turning point in the history of mankind. It was at that moment that death entered the world. Prior to it there was no death, suffering, pain, disease, or bloodshed; these things are the consequence of the original sin. Now if Adam evolved from other lifeforms then it would mean that death and suffering existed before man first sinned. This seems to be a contradiction and I cannot find a consistent or coherent escape from this; other version of events seem to require some compromise in the essential truths of the drama of redeeming history.
 
I believe that I do hold plausible arguments on the contested issues I face in taking a creationist stance, and if anyone is interested I will gladly share them as and when they arise. I certainly would not do them justice by trying to summarise them all in one post.
 
Also I am absolutely not dogmatic in my views and I am always open to having my ideas refined by critical thinkers. So to start with I'd be interested to know if any of the Christians here have managed to find a way of explaining the apparent paradox of death existing before death existed.
 
Here is an amusing illustration I found that communicates the point...
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Re: Riddle from bible...(math)  
« Reply #41 on: May 2nd, 2007, 5:39pm »
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If (literal, physical) death (of animals, at least -- plants were explicitly given as food) was absent from the Creation prior to the Fall, what, then, was the purpose of the tree of life?  Even apart from its name, Gen. 3:22 clearly says that eating of its fruit would cause one to live forever -- and without eating?  And if, as Gen. 2:19 says, God had already, before creating Eve, created all the birds and fish and animals, what of carnivores?
 
In general, I don't, myself, have a problem viewing the "natural" cycle of life, death and renewal as still being "very good" pre-Fall.  Genesis makes it clear that we humans are specially set apart in the eyes of God -- I tend to feel that perhaps we only brought about our own literal, physical death in the Fall, and destroyed the perfect balance of the rest of Creation, and perhaps most importantly mucked up our relationships with God.
 
I guess when pressed I view the "drama of redeeming history" as primarily about our relationship, personally and as a people, to God, and eternal bodily life as being secondary -- a nice consequence of an eternal relationship. And I fully realize that view has its own problems and inconsistencies -- but when the Scripture itself appears to be internally inconsistent in places (Cain's wife has to come into this discussion at some point, right? Wink), I'm OK with eventually getting to a point where I have to say "I just don't know what that verse is trying to say, but taken as a whole this way makes more sense to me."
 
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Re: Riddle from bible...(math)  
« Reply #42 on: May 2nd, 2007, 7:50pm »
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Where do I stand in this?
 
Shall I join Sir Col and azalia in a bold statement of faith in Biblical infallibility, as most in my church do?
 
Shall I join SMQ and others who claim that the first chapters of Genesis are a parable, not a history, where I have the support of so much scientific activity?
 
Here is my view: I don't know. I have issues with both positions. There is so much - beyond any evolutionary concerns - that suggests an age of more than 6000 years that I am hard-pressed to accept such a short period. (Though I do hold a number of reservations about the basis for the longer times of evolutionary theory as well.) On the other hand, Genesis is not offered in the Bible as a story. It reads like a history, and it is treated throughout in exactly that fashion. To consider it only a story requires certain accommodations of my faith that do not align with my personal experience. One way I try to address this issue is to look for other interpretations than just these two. But I do not have one that I favor.
 
But in the end, I also believe that it does not truly matter what I think or what you think about how this universe and humanity came to be. Even if I were to solve this riddle and discover irrefutably the truth of creation, I would stand before God a sinner, saved only by the grace of his Son Jesus. And my salvation requires only my trust in Him, not that I have all my doctrinal ponies in a row.
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Re: Riddle from bible...(math)  
« Reply #43 on: May 3rd, 2007, 12:02am »
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on May 2nd, 2007, 3:49pm, Sir Col wrote:
Now if Adam evolved from other lifeforms then it would mean that death and suffering existed before man first sinned. This seems to be a contradiction and I cannot find a consistent or coherent escape from this;

Sir Col, do you mind expanding on the issue of this contradiction?  
The only contradiction I can see is that if you have an a-priori assumption that the bible (as you beleive in it) is true, than it condradicts a view that condradicts the bibilical story...
But, in my book, that's circular reasoning. I assume you have a different view, which I will be glad to learn.
 
 
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Re: Riddle from bible...(math)  
« Reply #44 on: May 3rd, 2007, 12:05am »
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on May 2nd, 2007, 7:50pm, Icarus wrote:
And my salvation requires only my trust in Him, not that I have all my doctrinal ponies in a row.

 
A bit of a highjack... does it mean you beleive a person's actions mean nothing at all, only that person's strust in god / Jesus?
 
Because, if you do, your version of heaven just may be a place I'd rather avoid.
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Re: Riddle from bible...(math)  
« Reply #45 on: May 3rd, 2007, 6:52am »
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on May 3rd, 2007, 12:05am, BNC wrote:
A bit of a highjack... does it mean you beleive a person's actions mean nothing at all, only that person's strust in god / Jesus?

I of course wouldn't attempt to answer for Icarus, but for myself: essentially yes.  To seriously oversimplify a vast body of theology and tradition: a person's actions are reflective of their faith (Galatians 5:22-23, et al.), and in the end we will all be held accountable for what we've done in this life (Revelation 20:12, et al.); but the only standard of a perfect God is perfection, and we will all fall far short of that mark (Romans 3:23, et al.).  It is only through our acceptance of Jesus' payment of that debt on our behalf that we can be made right with God (Ephesians 2:8, et al.). The flip-side being that if we truly believe ourselves in Jesus' debt for our very lives, we owe Him our best effort at living those lives the way He asks -- faith without works is dead (James 2:26, et al.).
 
For a more in-depth treatment see for instance the Joint Declaration on the Doctrine of Justification prepared by the Lutheran and Catholic Churches.
 


As to the question of Genesis as history or just story, I admit I don't find "my" position entirely satisfying -- I, too, as still looking for a better reconciliation of what the scientific evidence appears to be telling us with what Scripture appears to be telling us -- but so far I have found the idea of Genesis as a cultural creation story (similar to and drawing from the creation stories of other contemporary cultures, but divinely inspired by God for His people to teach them the essential truths of His purpose in creation and redemption) more resonant with my experience of God, His scripture, and His creation than any alternative I've examined.
 
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Re: Riddle from bible...(math)  
« Reply #46 on: May 3rd, 2007, 7:30am »
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Is death bad?
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Re: Riddle from bible...(math)  
« Reply #47 on: May 3rd, 2007, 8:52am »
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I cry for God. And I don't even always believe in Him.
My image of God is one of Fairness and Love. I cannot reconcile that with eternal damnation and inherited sin; and I need not.  
I don't think God would punish someone for something they did before they could tell right from wrong; let alone punish every generation to come. Nor do I believe that God would care much whether one believed in something that can easily be perceived as nothing but a story. Much moreso I believe that he cares about the character, and behaviour, of us, his Children. And that he hopes for us to be the best we can be -- but at the same time does not require more of us than we can be.
And so on.
 
And in case you're wondering where 'sickness, suffering and death' leaves a fair, loving God; I would say that, with sadness in his heart, it is because we need it to be human. We'd have few redeeming qualities if not for how we deal with adversity; kittens beat us paws down on cuteness.
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Re: Riddle from bible...(math)  
« Reply #48 on: May 3rd, 2007, 9:58am »
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on May 3rd, 2007, 8:52am, towr wrote:
And in case you're wondering where 'sickness, suffering and death' leaves a fair, loving God; I would say that, with sadness in his heart, it is because we need it to be human. We'd have few redeeming qualities if not for how we deal with adversity; kittens beat us paws down on cuteness.

I believe that suffering, sickness, etc. have no more absolute reality than a bad dream. Just as when we experience such a dream, suffer in a sense, and wake to realize it wasn't real, so, when our hearts are pure, our minds are still, and we have enough grace to experience 'Godness', all such questions melt away before His transcendental majesty.  
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Re: Riddle from bible...(math)  
« Reply #49 on: May 3rd, 2007, 10:57am »
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Well, as a recovering Calvinist, I'll take a stab at explaining (no, there is too much; let me sum up) my understanding of the "big picture," with the caveat that I'm speaking for no one but myself and am probably wrong on several points, some of them important...
 
 
God has a plan for a perfect creation: one in which suffering and pain and death -- at least for those creatures with the capacity to make moral decisions and have a meaningful relationship with God -- is unnecessary.  Since He wants to have a meaningful relationship with us, he can't just make us mindless automatons, we have to have free will (in some form) for it to count.  That means that God's perfect plan relies on us not screwing it up.
 
He tried it once the easy way -- put us in a perfect creation and said: "just trust me."  We failed, breaking our relationship with God and destroying the delicate balance of the rest of the world through our selfishness.  The sorry state of the world -- the fallenness of all creation -- is our own dang fault.  And before judging Adam and Eve harshly or complaining that we're bearing the consequences of their choice, we need to ask ourselves honestly if we would have done any better in their place.  I know that I wouldn't have.
 
Every one of us has, at some point in our lives, done something to further the brokenness of the world, to make it a worse place rather than a better one, even when we knew better.  That means that, as we are, we can't be a part of God's perfect plan -- we've proven that we'll just screw it up again.  That's the price God demands for our imperfection: exclusion from the perfect plan, separation from Him -- death.
 
That leaves the hard way.  
 
In order that there might be an opportunity for us, his children, to participate in the perfect plan, God sent his Son, a part of himself, to become one of us, to pay the price of death and separation from God in full for each and every one of us, to be the first and only human to never, not once, make the world worse instead of better -- even knowing that we would kill him, painfully, for his trouble.
 
By choosing to die in our place, even though he was wholly innocent, Jesus took all the crap in the world onto himself, and took it to the grave with him.  And because the price was now paid, God released Jesus from death, took him back into a relationship, gave him a place in the perfect plan, and promised he would do the same for any one of us who was willing to accept the debt, and to try to trust Him.
 
And there's the catch -- there's where eternal damnation, separation from God forever comes in -- some, perhaps even most people would rather do without God in their lives than be in His debt.  They would rather do things their way than trust that His perfect plan really is perfect.  I feel that those who end up in Hell will be there of their free will and informed choice, deciding that the price of perfection -- putting God's plan ahead of their own desire in everything -- is more than they're willing to pay.  God offers salvation freely to everyone, but you have to be willing to accept the terms of the debt -- otherwise you'll just screw up the perfect plan ... again.
 
Incidentally, that also gives my answer to why a loving God allows the present suffering of the world to continue: so that once we're accepted into the perfect plan we'll have a sufficient understanding of the consequences of our choices not to screw it up again.  That as many as possible might be saved.
 
 
... but maybe that's just me. Smiley
 
--SMQ
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--SMQ

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