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        riddles >> easy >> The Strange Fish
        
(Message started by: Phil on Jan 28^th, 2003, 7:32am)

Title: The Strange Fish
Post by Phil on Jan 28^th, 2003, 7:32am

Here's a riddle of my own invention. Just thought this seemed like a good place to try it out:

I have a very strange fish in my aquarium. I got it from a man who said it was very old. He caught it in the streams of the Black Forest when he was a little boy and he'd had it ever since. I noticed that, every once in a while, the fish would swim up to the front of his bowl and start tapping his head against the glass, usually when I get in the habit of talking to myself. One day as I pondered this enigma I said, "What's he been up to?" And he immediately swam forward and rapped on the glass seven times.
I exclaimed, "I should find someone to tell, but they'll think I just concocted the whole thing, I fear." And he tapped on the glass once, paused, rapped eight times, and then added four more.
"You only hear this kind of stuff in fables or science fiction; I should write it all down." He head butted the glass five times and another three.
"This is exasperating. It's vital that I figure this out." Six taps followed by two taps.
"This is really starting to annoy now. People are going to think I'm insane. I never would have believed it if I hadn't seen it myself." At that the fish ran into the glass nine times, ten times, eleven times and knocked himself out. What's going on with my fish?

//Title changed by Icarus to be descriptive

Title: Re: New riddle
Post by Garzahd on Jan 28^th, 2003, 10:50am

So the sequence is 7 1 8 4 5 3 6 2 9 10 11.

I don't have an idea yet, but just wanted to get all the numbers visible without digging...

Title: Re: New riddle
Post by James Fingas on Jan 28^th, 2003, 12:27pm

Garzahd,

My intuition tells me that the fish is not creating a number sequence. It seems to be responding to the stimulus of the experimenter.

"What's he been up to?" => 7
"I should find someone to tell, but they'll think I just concocted the whole thing, I fear." => 1, 8, 4
"You only hear this kind of stuff in fables or science fiction; I should write it all down." => 5, 3
"This is exasperating. It's vital that I figure this out." => 6, 2
"This is really starting to annoy now. People are going to think I'm insane. I never would have believed it if I hadn't seen it myself." => 9, 10, (11) (might be incomplete. First sentence also seems odd--possible transcription error)

It seems that the responses are proportional to the length of the phrases, but I can't see something obvious that the fish is counting.

<edit>
Oh, I see what you mean about the sequence. These are all the numbers from 1 to 11. Hmm... </edit>

Title: Re: New riddle
Post by Phil on Jan 28^th, 2003, 1:12pm

Here's a different version of the same puzzle. For some of you this version could be easier, although I don't think I've got this one quite right yet.

I have a very strange fish in my aquarium. I bought it on a recent trip to the Yucatan. I noticed that, every once in a while, the fish would swim up to the front of his bowl and start tapping his head against the glass, usually when I get in the habit of talking to myself. One day I brought a friend to show him the trick, but the fish just swam around like a fish. My friend was ready to give up and leave and I said, “Don’t get antsy yet, a fish like this is worth the wait.” And my fish swam up close and rapped on the glass seven times.
My friend exclaimed, “What do you know? Just a note, show it around, county fairs, pet shows; just think what trophies that fish would win.” And he rapped on the glass once, paused, hit it eight more times, and then added four more.
“I’m guessing coast to coast fame and fortune. Don’t raise your eyebrows at me like that.” I said as my fish head butted the glass five times and then three more.
“I’d say somebody needs a dose of reality.” He replied as my fish added six more taps followed by two.
“It’s a new wave, a grand, yes, even a stupendous age to be alive.” At that the fish ran into the glass nine times, ten times, eleven times and knocked himself out. What’s going on with my fish?

Title: Re: New riddle
Post by Jen on Jan 28^th, 2003, 4:35pm

The number sequence is interesting. whether this pattern has a purpose or not-- but 7 1 8 4 5 6 3 2 9 10 11, ignoring the part of the riddle that each of the numbers fall in the pattern skips 7 and after that every two numbers adds to 9
7 1+8 4+5 6+3 2 (which added to 7 = 9) and then there is 10 and 11. This could be too obscure, but it's just a thought.

Title: Re: New riddle
Post by Phil on Jan 29^th, 2003, 6:22am

Here's a hint: Fish can't read! Fish can't do calculus or complex math. Fish can't play the piano. They're lousy at poker, awkward dancers, and very few are even bilingual. But they make great kissers (but that's another story). And he doesn't rap whenever I speak, just on certain rare occasions. This conversation was unusual.

Title: Re: New riddle
Post by BNC on Jan 29^th, 2003, 9:42am

I think I have a vague idea. I haven’t followed it all the way through, but maybe you guys can help.
I thinking along the lines of – the fish taps numbers he “think” he hears:

"What's he been up to?" => 7

‘s he been ~= seven

"I should find someone to tell, but they'll think I just concocted the whole thing, I fear." => 1, 8, 4

(some)one = one
[note: if it’s true, then to = two is missing here]
(conco)cted ~= eight
fear ~= four

"You only hear this kind of stuff in fables or science fiction; I should write it all down." => 5, 3

fable ~= five (??)
No idea about the three

"This is exasperating. It's vital that I figure this out." => 6, 2

(i)s ex(asperating) ~= six
No idea about the two

"This is really starting to annoy now. People are going to think I'm insane. I never would have believed it if I hadn't seen it myself." => 9, 10, (11)

(a)nnoy n(ow) ~= nine
No idea about the ten and eleven

Seems (to me) like a good start, though. Any comments / ideas?

Title: Re: New riddle
Post by Brett Danaher on Jan 29^th, 2003, 10:00am

I did not read the second of Phil's riddles, but in the first one, notice a perfect pattern.

The fish knocks in "groups" of knocks. In each series of comments by Phil, the fish has one group of knocks for each pattern of speech seperated by punctuation.

What's he been up to? = 1 group of knocks

I should find someone to tell, but they'll think I just concocted the whole thing, I fear. = 3 phrases seperated by commas = 3 groups of knocks.

You only hear this kind of stuff in fables or science fiction; I should write it all down = 2 phrases seperated by semicolon = 2 groups of knocks.

And so on....

Note that commas, semicolons, and periods cause a speaker to pause in his speech. So the fish seems to be responding in SOME way to each group of words (followed by a short breather) from Phil.

Now we just have to figure out the scheme for the number of knocks in each group, related to the number of words in each phrase.

Title: Re: New riddle
Post by prince on Jan 29^th, 2003, 10:02am

BNC, I had similar ideas. I thought the fish was either hearing or seeing (lip-reading) the numbers he tapped out. However, I keep getting inconsistencies, especially with the latest version of the riddle Phil posted.

I don't think it has to do with syllables, "spoken numbers", or even appearances of a kissing movement with the speaker's lips. (I thought that might be a clue).

As you can see I'm desperate. Someone help!

Title: Re: New riddle
Post by prince on Jan 29^th, 2003, 10:05am

Brett, I just saw your post. Again, this pattern does not work for the second puzzle (although Phil says he may not have gotten it right yet), nor does it explain the number of knocks per group.

Title: Re: New riddle
Post by Phil on Jan 29^th, 2003, 3:44pm

Getting close, but there's one big clue you haven't picked up on. Read my hints again and then read the puzzle from the beginning.

Title: Re: New riddle
Post by wowbagger on Jan 30^th, 2003, 5:45am

Yes! I solved it! ;D
As the [ hide ] tags don't work when quoted, let me give you the quite strong hint that the important part of Phil's hint is in the fourth sentence (not counting "Here's a hint:").

Here's how it works (hidden by colour):
[hide]
Upon reading the first version again, I realized the important piece of information: "He [a man] caught it [the fish] in the streams of the Black Forest when he was a little boy and he'd had it ever since." Can you already guess where we're heading?

Ok, here's how the numbers come about:
"What's he been up to?":
- "What's he been" - "sieben" - 7

"I should find someone to tell, but they'll think I just concocted the whole thing, I fear.":
- "find someone" - "eins" - 1
- "just" (?) - "acht" - 8
- "I fear" - "vier" - 4

"You only hear this kind of stuff in fables or science fiction; I should write it all down.":
- "stuff in fables" - "fuenf" - 5
- "should write" - "drei" - 3

"This is exasperating. It's vital that I figure this out.":
- "is exasperating" - "sechs" - 6
- "It's vital" - "zwei" - 2

"This is really starting to annoy now. People are going to think I'm insane. I never would have believed it if I hadn't seen it myself.":
- "annoy now" - "neun" - 9
- "insane" - "zehn" - 10
- "myself" - "elf" - 11

Rest assured that not all sounds match perfectly, which would be near to impossible I guess. Especially the 10 is a bit weak, and I'm not really sure about the 8.
[/hide]
What a truly remarkable and well-devised riddle! :D

Title: Re: New riddle
Post by wowbagger on Jan 30^th, 2003, 6:11am

Here's my go at the second version:
[hide]
As you may have found out upon close inspection of my last post, the fish recognizes the sounds used to denote the natural numbers (at least the first few) in some foreign language.

"I bought it on a recent trip to the Yucatan." Well, I don't know the language the Mayans spoke (or the one their descendants speak nowadays), so I'm lucky this one is about Spanish.

"Don?t get antsy yet, a fish like this is worth the wait.":
- "antsy yet a" - "siete" - 7

"What do you know? Just a note, show it around, county fairs, pet shows; just think what trophies that fish would win.":
- "you know" - "uno" - 1
- "note show" - "ocho" - 8
- "think what trophies" - "cuatro" - 4

"I'm guessing coast to coast fame and fortune. Don?t raise your eyebrows at me like that.":
- "guessing coast" - "cinco" - 5
- "Don't raise" - "tres" - 3

"I'd say somebody needs a dose of reality.":
- "say somebody" - "seis" - 6
- "dose" - "dos" - 2

"It's a new wave, a grand, yes, even a stupendous age to be alive.":
- "new wave" - "nueve" - 9
- "grand yes" - "diez" - 10
- ? - "once" - 11
- "stupendous age" - "doce" - 12 ??

The following seem a bit weird to me (but I'm no native speaker): 5 (should have a "th" sound at the beginning in Castilian - I know it's often a "s" in Latin America), 9 (no sound matches the first "e" in "nueve").
As for the 11, I'm not sure how to conjure that from the words given.
[/hide]
Well done again, Phil! :D

Title: Re: New riddle
Post by Phil on Jan 30^th, 2003, 6:32am

Congratulations, wowbagger,
Just a couple notes on your solutions (hidden):
The 8 in the first riddle is in the word concOCTed. And as for the second riddle, I don't speak a bit of spanish, but I tried it because I figured it might be more common than German among board members. That's why I said this puzzle wasn't quite right yet. For 9 I was thinking "new wave a" approximated it. And there's not supposed to be a 12; I goofed and thought doce was 11. Let's just say the fish knocked himself out before he could get in that final rap. Yeah, that's it. I meant to do that.

Title: Re: New riddle
Post by wowbagger on Jan 30^th, 2003, 7:20am

Thanks, Phil.
Thoughts on your notes on my solutions:
[hide]
I missed the American English pronounciation of "concoct", so this is my fault. It's still not the right sound for the "ch", of course, but any German (knowing a bit of English) hearing someone with an English accent say "akt" will understand them, I'd say. And I can't think of a common English word containing that sound either...
Considering you don't speak Spanish, the second version works really well! Oh, and your thinking regarding "nueve" is definitely better than mine.
[/hide]
Very convincing line of reasoning with respect to the last number! ;)

edited to add:
I know a word that fits the needs of the "8" in the first riddle much better:
[hide]loch - the "o" pronounced the AmE way and the "ch" not like a "k"[/hide].

I'm not so sure whether it can be integrated easily, though.

Title: Re: New riddle
Post by udippel on Jan 30^th, 2003, 9:23am

The idea of this puzzle is great ! - Well done.

Only, you better (hint !:)
[hide] polish your languages. Because the solution can hardly be found by a native speaker, rather by one with a 'strange' accent. Very strange at times. Change the nature of the fish slightly; you know in which direction [/hide]

Title: Re: New riddle
Post by Phil on Jan 30^th, 2003, 9:39am

In school I learned a little high German, which pronounces ch harder than what most Germans speak. I didn't take that into consideration. And as I said, I don't know Spanish at all. That, plus the difficulty of making the conversation appear somewhat normal (and that I decided to use the same number sequence in both puzzles) resulted in some awkwardness. If any of you can figure out a way to improve the wording and turn this into an actual riddle, be my guest.

Title: Re: New riddle
Post by wowbagger on Jan 30^th, 2003, 10:21am

udippel,

are you insinuating that I have a 'strange' accent? ::)

Title: Re: New riddle
Post by udippel on Jan 31^st, 2003, 9:54am

wowbagger, did I ??
Since you were the first to point out the complete solution (if I remember well), either your mother-tongue is German, and then you are a genius; or you are a genius because you riddle in second (or even further) languages.
You've probably seen stars talking in different languages by using this concept: Read & speak funny things in their mother-tongue and everyone else out there thinks they know a foreign language. 'Wih häf siehn juh' is almost perfect English if read and spoken by a native German speaker who doesn't know a word of English.
As I said, the idea of the riddle is great, but stuff like 'just' simply doesn't do the job. Wait: you noticed this, so you are good in German. Probably a genius, as I said.

Title: Re: New riddle
Post by wowbagger on Jan 31^st, 2003, 10:12am

on 01/31/03 at 09:54:15, udippel wrote:

Thanks for the compliment! :)
"But which one applies?" you might ask. Well, look at my profile for a hint. [hide]Or read this to learn that my mother tongue is German.[/hide]

Quote:

You've probably seen stars talking in different languages by using this concept: Read & speak funny things in their mother-tongue and everyone else out there thinks they know a foreign language. 'Wih häf siehn juh' is almost perfect English if read and spoken by a native German speaker who doesn't know a word of English.
As I said, the idea of the riddle is great, but stuff like 'just' simply doesn't do the job.

I'm pretty sure I've already heard people using the concept you describe. Normally they give themselves away when they need to pronounce sounds that don't occur in their mother tongue, like perhaps the German "ch" for English people or the notorious "th" for the Germans.

Quote:

Wait: you noticed this, so you are good in German. Probably a genius, as I said.