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        riddles >> general problem-solving / chatting / whatever >> Wishfull thinking
        
(Message started by: towr on Jan 26th, 2004, 8:44am)
Title: Wishfull thinking
Post by towr on Jan 26th, 2004, 8:44am
This is sort of a game..

You're facing an evil Djinn, and you have to make a wish. The Djinn will grant your wish, as he is compulsed to do so, but, being evil, will do his very best to twist your wish to something you never intended.
So for instance, if you ask for world peace, you may find yourself the sole survivor of the human race.

The game is simple:
Either make a wish
Or find the flaws in someone elses. Either in the methods with which the wish can be granted (peace on earth), or side effects it might have (Midas' touch)..

So to start it off, I'll start with wishing for a hamburger..
Title: Re: Wishfull thinking
Post by TenaliRaman on Jan 26th, 2004, 9:04am
you should prolly mention the size of the hamburger or else the djinn would prolly kill all the cattle in this world to make you one big hamburger.
Title: Re: Wishfull thinking
Post by Jon B on Jan 26th, 2004, 10:09am
"Make me a hamburger."
Poof!!! "You're a hamburger."
I'll wish for a wish that has no evil, harmful or unintended consequences.
Title: Re: Wishfull thinking
Post by towr on Jan 26th, 2004, 10:43am

on 01/26/04 at 10:09:10, Jon B wrote:
"Make me a hamburger."
Poof!!! "You're a hamburger."
hehe.. Good thing I wished for one, not to be made one :P
But on TenaliRamans suggestion I think I'd amend it to
"I wish for one average sized hamburger".


Quote:
I'll wish for a wish that has no evil, harmful or unintended consequences.
You really want a wish that has either 'no evil consequences', 'harmfull consequences' or 'unintended consequences' ? :P
Ambiguous sentences are a sure fire way to get what you don't want..
Title: Re: Wishfull thinking
Post by John_Gaughan on Jan 27th, 2004, 5:10am
"I wish to be able to fly by using my mind powers."

(the intended way is like telekinesis: I think about flying somewhere, and my body moves)
Title: Re: Wishfull thinking
Post by rmsgrey on Jan 29th, 2004, 8:36am

on 01/27/04 at 05:10:35, John_Gaughan wrote:
"I wish to be able to fly by using my mind powers."

Read as "I wish to me able to fly by using my (uncontrollable, unpredictable, intermittent and generally unreliable) mind powers" and I'll see you 30 seconds later near the edge of the atmosphere to give you the choice of continuing upwards until you freeze and suffocate or having your powers cut out and letting you reach terminal velocity on the way down...

On the hamburger front, what are your feelings on food poisoning? For that matter, what are you wishing on behalf of this hamburger, and is it really entitled to a wish, or you to serve as proxy for it?
Title: Re: Wishfull thinking
Post by John_Gaughan on Jan 29th, 2004, 9:02am

on 01/26/04 at 08:44:04, towr wrote:
So to start it off, I'll start with wishing for a hamburger..

A hamburger made with mad cow meat. A hamburger that you cannot swallow, so you choke to death. A hamburger laced with arsenic. A hamburger made with rancid meat.

Or, worst of all, a vegetarian soy-based hamburger :-)
Title: Re: Wishfull thinking
Post by John_Gaughan on Jan 29th, 2004, 9:03am
I wish for a million dollars.
Title: Re: Wishfull thinking
Post by towr on Jan 29th, 2004, 9:47am

on 01/29/04 at 09:03:23, John_Gaughan wrote:
I wish for a million dollars.
Ah, a classic..
A bag of money is dropped at your door, it contains 1 million dollar as you wished. A day later you're arrested for bank robbery, convicted, and end up in prison as a 'playmate' for some guy called 'Butch'.. :P
Title: Re: Wishfull thinking
Post by Icarus on Jan 29th, 2004, 6:06pm
I once read a short story by Orson Scott Card called "middle woman" about a chinese peasant woman who meets a magic dragon, who gives her the choice of being eaten or having three wishes granted - in exactly the fashion here. The woman wishes first that her farm will always produce enough to feed her family. The dragon grants it by flying off and devouring her family: thus, no matter what the farm produces, it will be enough. Card wimps out at this point though. The woman's second wish is for everything to be restored to the way it was when she began her journey that morning - a wish that if properly granted would result in the end of the universe in an ever-recurring loop. But he has her knowing what will happen and canceling her trip.

The problem with this game is that one can always choose to simply interpret the words differently than the speaker wishes. But to play along, how about this wish.

"I wish for 1 ton of pure gold, in the form of a solid stable cube of standard density and room temperature, to which no one other than me has any claim or knowledge of, to appear on top of the floor at rest in the basement, away from any living thing larger than a spider (you can squash any bugs as you please). And no changes to anything else around while you are at it."
Title: Re: Wishfull thinking
Post by John_Gaughan on Jan 29th, 2004, 8:11pm

on 01/29/04 at 18:06:56, Icarus wrote:
"I wish for 1 ton of pure gold, in the form of a solid stable cube of standard density and room temperature, to which no one other than me has any claim or knowledge of, to appear on top of the floor at rest in the basement, away from any living thing larger than a spider (you can squash any bugs as you please). And no changes to anything else around while you are at it."

One second later, you have a cracked basement floor from the strain. There is a cold war bomb shelter underneath the floor you did not know about, and the floor collapses. One of the major load-bearing pillars has nothing to stand on, so it and the joist it supports sag as the floor crumbles from underneath it. The joist cracks, starting a chain reaction that collapses the entire house on top of your head.

And then, you die...
Title: Re: Wishfull thinking
Post by BNC on Jan 30th, 2004, 12:58am
"I wish to be granted 1,000,000 wishes from you, wishes you will folfill for me"...

And another one:

"I wish to be the only person able to read the thoughts and feeling of other humans, one by one or as a group (according to my wish and control), as well the ability to alter the thoughts and feeling of other humans. To be absolutley clear, these abilities must be toally under my control, so that I may choose if, when, how and on whom this powers will work. No other changes to the reallity as we know it."


A side note:
I once saw a short TV movie, in which an old couple received a monkey claw that may fulfill 3 wishes for it's current holder. The one who gave them the claw said it did work for him "in it;s own way".
The couple sat thinking what to ask for, when their son retured from his work at the coal mind, laughed, and wished for a million $. Then he went up to his room, and declared the room empty from money.
The next day there's an eccident at the mind, the son is killed, and his parents reeive 1M$ from the mind management.
It's late in the evening, quite, dark and gloomy, and the parents think about their next move. The mother takes the claw and wishes for her son to be alive again. Imediatly the door starts to shake, horoble wind stires everything, the lights dim...
The father says to his wife -- there is only one way our dead son can be "back". He takes the claw and says "I wish for my son to be dead again".
Quite.
The end.
Title: Re: Wishfull thinking
Post by towr on Jan 30th, 2004, 1:03am
I'm not sure I buy the bomb-shelter thing. There might as well not have been one, and the wish can't reasonably make there be one.


on 01/29/04 at 18:06:56, Icarus wrote:
"I wish for 1 ton of pure gold, in the form of a solid stable cube of standard density and room temperature, to which no one other than me has any claim or knowledge of, to appear on top of the floor at rest in the basement, away from any living thing larger than a spider (you can squash any bugs as you please). And no changes to anything else around while you are at it."
Hmm.. it seems that anything entering the basement dies, as the cube must remain away from any living thing larger than a spider.
Alternatively it may simply disappear if anything larger enters. But that's getting off easy ;)
Title: Re: Wishfull thinking
Post by towr on Jan 30th, 2004, 1:10am

on 01/30/04 at 00:58:24, BNC wrote:
"I wish to be granted 1,000,000 wishes from you, wishes you will folfill for me"...
The Djinn leaves, and you grow old unable to ever die untill every so often he returns to fullfill one of the 1.000.000 wishes, which allways turn out badly somehow :P
Title: Re: Wishfull thinking
Post by John_Gaughan on Jan 30th, 2004, 5:38am
The one about the monkey claw reminds me of a Twilight Zone where a couple receives a box with a button. There are no wires, nothing besides a box and an apparently inert button. The man who gave it to them said they had a day. If they push the button during that day, someone they do not know will die and they will get one million dollars. The end up pushing the button. The man comes back with the money and takes the box. They ask what he is going to do with the box: he says he will give it to someone they do not know :-)
Title: Re: Wishfull thinking
Post by BNC on Jan 30th, 2004, 9:06am

on 01/30/04 at 01:10:02, towr wrote:
The Djinn leaves, and you grow old unable to ever die untill every so often he returns to fullfill one of the 1.000.000 wishes, which allways turn out badly somehow :P


Ah, but then on the 2nd visit (or imediatly after I'm granted the 1M wishes) I wish for the Djinn to stay, on the 3rd wish I wis for him to stop interpreting my wishes in an evil way, and then...
Title: Re: Wishfull thinking
Post by towr on Jan 31st, 2004, 4:16am

on 01/30/04 at 09:06:15, BNC wrote:
Ah, but then on the 2nd visit (or immediatly after I'm granted the 1M wishes) I wish for the Djinn to stay, on the 3rd wish I wis for him to stop interpreting my wishes in an evil way, and then...
You'd still face an awfully long life.. I doubt even in the best case you could do more than one wish a minute.
Besides, the second visit might not be untill after the sun has long died out. Doesn't seem like as pleasant prospect, less so if it doesn't kill you but you still feel everything.
Also, you failed to specify it should be your wishes that should be granted for you.. He might just collect wishes from others and when he collected a million unleash them all upon you..
Title: Re: Wishfull thinking
Post by BNC on Jan 31st, 2004, 6:05am

on 01/31/04 at 04:16:46, towr wrote:
You'd still face an awfully long life.. I doubt even in the best case you could do more than one wish a minute.

Not really a problem...
- I wish to stop growing older
- I wish for the rest of my wishes to vanish
- I wish for time to slow down for me
- I wish to die now, withut pain.
And many more


Quote:
Besides, the second visit might not be untill after the sun has long died out. Doesn't seem like as pleasant prospect, less so if it doesn't kill you but you still feel everything.

Easilly solvable by specifying the wishes are to be granted even if he's not next to me.


Quote:
Also, you failed to specify it should be your wishes that should be granted for you.. He might just collect wishes from others and when he collected a million unleash them all upon you..

Yeah... ok.

I'm really more interested in the 'mule-like' mind reading/altering.
Title: Re: Wishfull thinking
Post by towr on Feb 1st, 2004, 7:32am

on 01/31/04 at 06:05:30, BNC wrote:
Not really a problem...
- I wish to stop growing older
A classic as a first wish, in this case turning to stone would pose a problem for the Djinn, as he could not complete the first wish anymore.

Quote:
- I wish for time to slow down for me
Heh.. the universe passes you by even faster :P
I suppose if the Djinn is inclined not to break too many laws of physics it's a good way to get somewhere, as you must be travelling near the speed of light..


Quote:
I'm really more interested in the 'mule-like' mind reading/altering.
Yes, I was just thinking about that on the way home.. But I see now I didn't remember the wording right, so that's a bust.. It's a toughie..


Quote:
"I wish to be the only person able to read the thoughts and feeling of other humans, one by one or as a group (according to my wish and control), as well the ability to alter the thoughts and feeling of other humans. To be absolutely clear, these abilities must be toally under my control, so that I may choose if, when, how and on whom this powers will work. No other changes to the reallity as we know it."
hmm.. that bit in parentheses might be a way out. If you don't want to read thoughts and feelings of people (or no more than you allready can), then we're done.

But there's also a more fundamental problem. Almost everyone has a basic ability to read others, a sensitivity to their state of mind etc. That is _heavily_ relied upon in social interaction. Without it everyone will seem somewhat autistic. And you've just wished to be the only one with any such ability whatsoever.
I suppose you yourself are pretty safe, but you pretty much doomed every other living human.. Reproduction will be severely hampered, social structure collapses. There will probably not be much left of the human race one or two generations later. On the bright side you did the rest of mother earth a favor :P
Title: Re: Wishfull thinking
Post by BNC on Feb 2nd, 2004, 11:59pm

on 02/01/04 at 07:32:20, towr wrote:
I suppose you yourself are pretty safe, but you pretty much doomed every other living human.. Reproduction will be severely hampered, social structure collapses. There will probably not be much left of the human race one or two generations later. On the bright side you did the rest of mother earth a favor :P


You seem to forget I now have the ability to influence other humans, including as a group. I can make everyone nice and friendly. I can make enough people sex-crazed to generate the next generation. I can probably even make everyone (except me -- hehe) the way they were using my new powers.

Here's another, non-selfish idea:
Dragon: "I grant you one wish, bla bla"
User: "I wish you, and only you, cease to exist."
Title: Re: Wishfull thinking
Post by towr on Feb 3rd, 2004, 1:15am

on 02/02/04 at 23:59:16, BNC wrote:
You seem to forget I now have the ability to influence other humans, including as a group. I can make everyone nice and friendly. I can make enough people sex-crazed to generate the next generation. I can probably even make everyone (except me -- hehe) the way they were using my new powers.
No, only the reading of feeling and thought applies to the whole group :P
Besides, it's not as if they don't have feelings and thoughts allready. In fact those never changed. It's their ability to read/sense the feelings and thoughts others that is impaired (or absent actually).
Actually this would go as far as them not being able to read books, as those are written down thoughts (and feelings)..


Quote:
Here's another, non-selfish idea:
Dragon: "I grant you one wish, bla bla"
User: "I wish you, and only you, cease to exist."
That might do it.. On the other hand, isn't it the nature of things to come in to existence, exist for a while and then cease to exist. And now everything else must never cease to exist. I'm not sure that's even possible, short of freezing the entire universe in one moment. (And you didn't say when he had to cease to exist either :P)
Title: Re: Wishfull thinking
Post by rmsgrey on Feb 3rd, 2004, 7:45am
"I wish you, and only you, cease to exist"

Take the "eternal" viewpoint, and the Djinn is suddenly edited out of existence retroactively (from a viewpoint sufficiently outside the universe, time within the universe is just another direction, and everything that has ever existed always exists). That sort of messes things up rather and undoubtedly leads to all sorts of problems - though refusing to let anything else cease to exist is liable to mess things up even further.

Another possible problem lies in the question of where the Djinn gets its power from - if, for instance, the Djinn has the power because the universe is his dream or otherwise depends entirely upon his continued existence, then his cessation of existence would include the cessation of the universe's existence.

Alternatively, the Djinn ceases to exist. An instant later, he comes back into existence (or is replaced by his nastier brother).

As to the mind control: things that aren't persons can still read, control etc other humans. For that matter, there's nothing in the wording to specify that the power to alter is exclusive - merely the power to read. Imagine a world of people totally without empathy who can influence the thoughts and actions of others at will. Also, I'm a little wary of using the word "wish" within a wish... It may well work out that you can only use your powers as stipulated in future granted wishes (of which you have none).
Title: Re: Wishfull thinking
Post by towr on Feb 24th, 2004, 3:52am
http://www.reallifecomics.com/daily.php?strip_id=1136 (and the next, and probably the next after that, which hasn't been posted as I write)
Title: Re: Wishfull thinking
Post by OD on May 6th, 2004, 4:54pm
Hmm all these wishes remind me of a particular part in Planescape Torment (best PC game, ever) where you hear a story about yourself (you being an immortal man who loses his memory every time he dies) where you come accross a witch. She tells you you once had 3 wishes, but then you made 2 and the 2 of you lost contact. So now you have one wish left. You think about it for a small while and wish for something (i forgot what it was) and then the witch smiles and says "Funny, that was your first wish."
Title: Re: Wishfull thinking
Post by towr on May 7th, 2004, 12:36am
All hail Google ;D


Quote:
Morte's Tale;

---------------------------------------
NO: "Morte... do you have a story to trade?"

Morte: "Me? Why do *I* have to tell a story?"

NO: "Just tell a story, Morte."

Morte: "Fine, fine..."
"An elderly man was sitting alone on a dark path, right? He wasn't certain of which direction to go, and he'd forgotten both where he was traveling to and who he was. He'd sat down for a moment to rest his weary legs, and suddenly looked up to see an elderly woman before him. She grinned toothlessly and with a cackle, spoke: 'Now your *third* wish. What will it be?'"
"'Third wish?' The man was baffled. 'How can it be a third wish if I haven't had a first and second wish?'"
"'You've had two wishes already,' the hag said, 'but your second wish was for me to return everything to the way it was before you had made your first wish. That's why you remember nothing; because everything is the way it was before you made any wishes.' She cackled at the poor berk. 'So it is that you have one wish left.'"
"'All right,' said the man, "I don't believe this, but there's no harm in wishing. I wish to know who I am.'"
"'Funny,' said the old woman as she granted his wish and disappeared forever. 'That was your first wish.'"
Title: Re: Wishfull thinking
Post by Sir Col on May 7th, 2004, 4:31am
What a great thread, and I love that comic strip, towr!  ;D

How would the Djinn handle a malevolent request? What if I was an evil Nihlist or worshipped a god of chaos?

"I wish for the every living creature to be permanently struck with confusion and to be bent on depravity and destruction."


How about saying to our magickal fiend, "I wish for you to renounce evil"?
Title: Re: Wishfull thinking
Post by Three Hands on May 7th, 2004, 9:09am
I guess that a malevolent request would be welcomed with open arms, since you're also going to be struck by the wish, and find out what the practical implications of your actions are. As for renouncing evil, again, he could probably renounce evil briefly, and then return to his normal self.

I'd probably end up with going for something like "I wish you'd just leave me alone". Granted, he's probably going to come up with some evil thing to have done to me, but at least I won't have directly caused my own misery...
Title: Re: Wishfull thinking
Post by Three Hands on May 9th, 2004, 4:24am
After talking to a couple of friends about this, we came up with the idea of wishing "I wish you would now become incapable of granting any further wishes for any being, and that you never regain that capability". Surely saving others from being tempted to make foolish wishes is a worthy use for your wish  :)

I can't spot any obvious loopholes in the wish, but let me know if you spot any...
Title: Re: Wishfull thinking
Post by towr on May 9th, 2004, 5:45am

on 05/07/04 at 09:09:05, Three Hands wrote:
I'd probably end up with going for something like "I wish you'd just leave me alone". Granted, he's probably going to come up with some evil thing to have done to me, but at least I won't have directly caused my own misery...
If you wish to be left alone, you might end up finding yourself on a desert island, or worse..
Most people don't like being alone.. (I suppose if you do like it he'd have to find some other way to mess with you)
Title: Re: Wishfull thinking
Post by towr on May 9th, 2004, 5:48am

on 05/09/04 at 04:24:31, Three Hands wrote:
After talking to a couple of friends about this, we came up with the idea of wishing "I wish you would now become incapable of granting any further wishes for any being, and that you never regain that capability". Surely saving others from being tempted to make foolish wishes is a worthy use for your wish  :)

I can't spot any obvious loopholes in the wish, but let me know if you spot any...
Perhaps there always has to be someone to grant those wishes, perhaps the Djinn never wanted to in the first place and was simply cursed to do so. Of course when you then wish he'll never be capable to do so again, someone else will have to get the job. And you're the most convenient target (that's also a popular ending when someone wishes for an unlimited number of wishes)
Title: Re: Wishfull thinking
Post by Three Hands on May 9th, 2004, 4:06pm
Ah, but that could then be even better, as you'd then have the power to mess with others who wished for silly things, and so have the fun that the Djinn was having before. Doesn't seem all that bad, really...
Title: Re: Wishfull thinking
Post by towr on May 9th, 2004, 11:39pm
Well, generally you wouldn't have much of a life. Usually Djinns are bound to an object and are only freed to grant a wish. And considering the horrible things you may have to inflict on people when they inevitably make a not so well thought through wish, it might not be that much fun..
Title: Re: Wishfull thinking
Post by Three Hands on May 10th, 2004, 11:28am
Mind you, I'm sure the job has a decent dental plan :D

It probably depends on the constraints the Djinn was under when you made your wish, and also you could choose to interpret the wishes of others as you see fit, and so could avoid all sorts of nasty interpretations...

Then of course, you also get the joy of meeting someone who has attempted to think through this situation, and really make them suffer - surely a worthwhile thing to do  ;)

Of course, this assumes that the djinn doesn't come up with some pent-up wishes to force you to grant...
Title: Re: Wishfull thinking
Post by Noke Lieu on Aug 31st, 2004, 6:46pm
Just dust this one off...

"I wish from THIS moment in time you don't have the power to grant wishes"

and watch the djinn's head hurt. :P
Title: Re: Wishfull thinking
Post by towr on Sep 1st, 2004, 12:58am
Well, either that's impossible, or it doesn't change anything.
He can't retroactively stop existing if he's bound to follow the same timeline after all. And if he doesn't have to follow a timeline 'THIS moment' doesn't really exist to him.


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