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        riddles >> general problem-solving / chatting / whatever >> Internet and Democracy
        
(Message started by: DavidMuic on Jan 12th, 2012, 6:51am)
Title: Internet and Democracy
Post by DavidMuic on Jan 12th, 2012, 6:51am
I need opinions here.

Does the internet contribute to more freedom and democracy?
Title: Re: Internet and Democracy
Post by towr on Jan 12th, 2012, 8:23am
On the one hand, it's a way for people to voice their opinion and rally together, on the other hand it can be a tool for governments to control it's people.
The internet is a tool, whether it contributes to freedom and democracy or not depends on how it is used.
Title: Re: Internet and Democracy
Post by Grimbal on Jan 12th, 2012, 9:05am
It seems to me that up to now the Internet has been a great boost for democracy by just helping to spread information to everybody.

But it seems to me that a few companies are gaining access to way too much information about individual people and makes me fear we are going in the direction of a small circle of companies that rules the rest of the world.
Title: Re: Internet and Democracy
Post by DavidMuic on Jan 12th, 2012, 8:28pm
So how is it that China could suppress their people through internet censoring while the Middle East couldn't?
Title: Re: Internet and Democracy
Post by towr on Jan 12th, 2012, 10:20pm
I think that's the wrong question, because the context is different. Life is getting worse for the people in the middle east with food prices soaring and a bad economy, while for the Chinese life is getting better. Another difference is the demographic. China has an aging population with a median age of 35.5, while in the middle-east most people are young: in Egypt the median age is 24.3.
If push came to shove, I'm not so sure Chinese internet censoring would be able to suppress its people; even shutting down the internet entirely didn't help the regimes in the middle eastern countries. But the Chinese have little reason to revolt, they only have to wait and things get better, so why rock the boat?
Title: Re: Internet and Democracy
Post by DavidMuic on Jan 12th, 2012, 11:54pm
So let's say we forget the internet for one second.

Whether or not the people have the right to vote or express, is less important than their well being. This is what I could conclude from the China example, that's also why some countries in the Middle East with authoritarian rulers are having no problems while some do, based on their distribution of wealth(mainly from oil export) ?

(Im doing this thesis about democracy and really appreciate all the support and opinions)
Title: Re: Internet and Democracy
Post by towr on Jan 13th, 2012, 8:40am
I wouldn't necessarily say that their right to vote or voice their opinion is less important than their well-being ( I'd say it is part of what makes up their well-being). But people are less inclined to take to the street and protest -- and risk the ire of the authorities -- if the stakes aren't very high. If you can't afford food, or can't afford to start a family, the stakes are pretty high; it's your day-to-day life that's affected. If you can't vote, well, how often do you vote? Sure, it affects your life, but you don't notice it that much -- unless there's something that really, desperately needs to change and you notice that nobody's listening to you.
Title: Re: Internet and Democracy
Post by rmsgrey on Jan 13th, 2012, 5:58pm
In general, democracies are better places to live than non-democracies, but that's like saying that, in general, men are stronger than women. In individual cases, a given woman can be stronger than a given man, and a given non-democracy can be a better place to live than a given democracy.

The great weakness of democracy is that it relies on the basic assumption that everyone's opinion (unless they're insane or under a certain age or meet any of various other criteria that have been used over the millennia) is equally valid - or in representative democracy, that everyone's judgement of who should be making decisions is equally valid.

One obvious failure mode for democratic societies is "bread and circuses" - a sufficient proportion of the population realises that they can vote for expanded welfare and better entertainments and stop worrying about the long-term consequences...
Title: Re: Internet and Democracy
Post by tradingpostmotel on Jan 14th, 2012, 1:47pm
The internet is good for democracy because it lets others learn new things about other countries. Their religion, culture and political views.  
Title: Re: Internet and Democracy
Post by Questionnaire on Jan 31st, 2012, 1:15pm
In Holland we already have an official account to do our bureaucratic tasks like filling in taxforms over the Internet. For the bureaucratics of a government, at least, the Internet has been very usefull.
I believe that the Internet could be used to fix some of the governing problems democracies have to cope with.
Having an election is difficult and costly, which is a reason why major democracies were unable to use a referendum-based government until now.
By this I mean a democracy that votes not only on leaders, but on issues.
Using the Internet to vote would:
-decrease the costs of voting drastically
-enable campaigns based on ideas not supported by the rich and powerfull
-enable us to have elections more often, and in that way give our governments the feedback from the people they (should) need.
-raise the number of people who actually vote (very low in my country, even lower in the USA)

Of course there are downsides as well, namely security and privacy issues. Also there is the question if you really want a referendum-based democracy, but that is getting too opinionlike to me.

Governments can use  the Internet as a tool to access the people, manipulate them or to spy on them. But either way the power of the Internet is not te be underestimated.



Just my two cents,
W
Title: Re: Internet and Democracy
Post by ashutoshets on Feb 21st, 2012, 8:21pm
Yes Internet give  more freedom to express you view .
Title: Re: Internet and Democracy
Post by prashant on Feb 21st, 2012, 11:54pm

on 01/12/12 at 06:51:59, DavidMuic wrote:
I need opinions here.

Does the internet contribute to more freedom and democracy?

yes,it does.
Title: Re: Internet and Democracy
Post by alexdrid25 on Feb 23rd, 2012, 10:25pm
Internet is a powerful medium that gives freedom to people all over the globe. And this forum site is such a great example to take on  ;D
Title: Re: Internet and Democracy
Post by alisdiar on Jul 9th, 2012, 1:30am
Yes the Internet contribute more freedom. it helps us for know anything in the world. It provide many things which we want to use or learn from everywhere.
Title: Re: Internet and Democracy
Post by Ela on Jul 18th, 2012, 11:40pm
Of course the Internet give you the capabilities and platform to speak up in 60% of the world and it already started a rebels movements in many nations which never had the freedom of speech which you take for so granted.
Title: Re: Internet and Democracy
Post by srijth110 on Oct 4th, 2012, 2:42am
Yes  through internet only we can tell the problems which are occuring in the democracy
Title: Re: Internet and Democracy
Post by MathsForFun on Oct 31st, 2012, 2:16pm

on 01/12/12 at 06:51:59, DavidMuic wrote:
Does the internet contribute to more freedom and democracy?

[hide]The printing press is said to have contributed greatly to democracy - and the internet is an order of magnitude more powerful than the printing press.[/hide]
Title: Re: Internet and Democracy
Post by Grimbal on Nov 1st, 2012, 9:32am
I wonder.

I heard in the news about the US elections, that there are action groups that do "microtargetting" to help the one or the other candidate.
The idea is that people who want to favour one candidate can download a list of neighbours who haven't registererd for voting.  For each neighbour is a profile that gives the neighbours interests and the points in the candidate's program that is more likely to make him/her decide to vote for the candidate.

These profiles were purchased from a private data collecting agency.

So the internet helps those who can buy the data to give a very biased view of their candidate to push peoples votes the way they like.

OK, in my opinion the internet is still helping democracy by spreading knowledge, but there are also dangers.
Title: Re: Internet and Democracy
Post by paulstrahann on Jan 27th, 2013, 9:03pm
No doubt on that Internet is the big reason for democracy and also for some independence as well. Now, we can collect information through the Internet and sharing options are too. It's helpful to spread democracy as well. So, I also feel that Internet is truly great for democracy and internet.
Title: Re: Internet and Democracy
Post by jemyclarke on Feb 11th, 2013, 3:54am
Governments world-wide are starting more and more to use the internet and state of the art technologies in order to control the life of individuals. The use of the internet to make money has created a democratic revolution of money making opportunities across the world.
Title: Re: Internet and Democracy
Post by new_world on Mar 20th, 2013, 1:31pm
I think it does. It's much harder to ban/censor the Internet than some local newspaper. Of course it's not impossible for countries to block specific websites from their population, but people always find ways to bypass this limitation.

So, I strongly believe the Internet contributes for freedom and democracy, since it's the easiest way for someone to express their opinions.

Here are two politicians quotes about this:

“Both the American people and nations that censor the internet should understand that our government is committed to helping promote internet freedom.”
(Hillary Clinton)

“I am in favor of complete freedom of information and of free access to the new communication tools, in particular the Internet.”
(Omar Bongo)

Source: Lib Quotes (https://libquotes.com/)
Title: Re: Internet and Democracy
Post by Mariko79 on Apr 2nd, 2013, 12:34pm
I think that the answer is YES, because the libetry of expression have biger limits than other mass media
Title: Re: Internet and Democracy
Post by venkatsha on May 9th, 2013, 5:44am
What about SOPA and PIPA things. Does those bills were passed?
Title: Re: Internet and Democracy
Post by arshkapoor on Aug 21st, 2013, 12:27pm
internet is the best way to gain information and best way to come up with your opinion to the world. I share my words at my blog and i learn the freedom to say what ever i want and without any limitations

// removed link to commercial blog.
Title: Re: Internet and Democracy
Post by pandani on Oct 27th, 2013, 4:28pm
What is democracy and freedom? We are not fully have them. Everything is still under control either democracy and freedom.
Title: Re: Internet and Democracy
Post by Gadsubone on Nov 21st, 2013, 3:49am


Democracy is not just about granting freedoms; it is also about accepting ... More often than not, the internet allows us to skirt these ...The internet is a place of great personal freedom, where people can place their views and do what they wish with much less chance of getting called out for what they say or do
Title: Re: Internet and Democracy
Post by goodRiddler on Nov 21st, 2013, 11:32pm
The internet in itself is good for democracy, but it can be used to hurt democracy.
Title: Re: Internet and Democracy
Post by bal on Jul 7th, 2014, 6:43am
It should.
Title: Re: Internet and Democracy
Post by EdwardSmith on Jul 7th, 2014, 10:50pm
The internet lets you understand other peoples point of view.
It brings together different cultures and lets them talk together without war.
So I think it is democratic..
Title: Re: Internet and Democracy
Post by towr on Jul 8th, 2014, 9:00am

on 07/07/14 at 22:50:25, EdwardSmith wrote:
The internet lets you understand other peoples point of view.
In theory.

In practice, it lets you find people that already share your point of view, and lets you avoid people that have a different one.

And it doesn't help that google and the like create filter bubble that even makes it more difficult to escape that effect.

[e]fixed typos[/e]
Title: Re: Internet and Democracy
Post by Grimbal on Jul 12th, 2014, 5:57am

on 07/08/14 at 09:00:54, towr wrote:
In practice, it let's you find people that already share your point of view, and let's you avoid people that have a different one.

Hm... so you disagree with him?  :-)
Title: Re: Internet and Democracy
Post by towr on Jul 14th, 2014, 9:20am

on 07/12/14 at 05:57:38, Grimbal wrote:
Hm... so you disagree with him?  :-)
Yes.

But just because the internet would let me avoid him, doesn't mean it forces me to.
And there's a very good chance I share more points of view with Edward than with a random person on the internet. Certainly more than with a person I'd meet on a fundamentalist Christian site, or a conspiracy theory blog, or some alternative "medicine" website.
I don't think the people there would be much inclined to help me understand them anyway, that would require them to accept that skepticism of their beliefs is a valid position.
Title: Re: Internet and Democracy
Post by EdwardSmith on Jul 14th, 2014, 10:46am
I agree that we would probably not visit sites that do not share our points of view, but they are there anyway and the internet has a less biased view than newspapers or tv.
Title: Re: Internet and Democracy
Post by towr on Jul 14th, 2014, 11:30am
The internet has a vast range of very biased views; you can't just average them out and say that makes the whole less biased. And even if the extremes did somehow balance (which is a question in itself), there's still the issue that people don't make a balanced selection from what's on offer. It's like how people could get a balanced meal from the supermarket, but many come home with mostly junk food.

Another reason I don't think the internet (to the extent people partake of it) is less biased than newspapers or TV is that newspapers and TV are mass-market media, they have to appeal to a lot of people at once. This is not true on the internet, where anyone can vent or seek out views that are as extreme in any direction they desire. TV/newspapers can't really afford such extremism, because they'd lose too many viewers/readers; they have to be popular to be profitable.

Although, admittedly, there's a difference between newspapers/TV here (in the Netherlands) and, say, the US. (From what I can tell over here.) What I see of Fox news does seem pretty extreme to me (but then, I do almost exclusively see it through the goggles of "the Daily Show" and "the Colbert report", so that's hardly a balanced view of Fox News (I'd hope) ).
Title: Re: Internet and Democracy
Post by EdwardSmith on Jul 16th, 2014, 2:37pm
Dont be fooled.
The news is not the news. It is the version of the news of the powers that be.
We are told just enough so that we can be controlled.
The internet however has become too large to control and it allows you enough information to read between the lines.
Newspapers are only good for crosswords and sport.
Title: Re: Internet and Democracy
Post by JiNbOtAk on Jul 16th, 2014, 10:04pm
Admit it, the first thing that we searched for when we started using the internet was porn.

Just had to put that in, lest we forget how important porn internet is in our life.  ;D
Title: Re: Internet and Democracy
Post by towr on Jul 16th, 2014, 11:30pm

on 07/16/14 at 14:37:33, EdwardSmith wrote:
Dont be fooled.
Always good advise.
But bear in mind people fool themselves more often than others do.


Quote:
The news is not the news. It is the version of the news of the powers that be.
In a free, capitalist society it's the version of the news that people will pay to read (or pay to put advertisement next to). They're powers that are, I suppose, but not typically the political powers one considers when one speaks of the powers that be. And there's invariable a choice of different slants of news, liberal, conservative, even paranoid and nutcase (just like on the internet).
In less free societies, like China, the government does control the newspapers, but they also control the internet. So you're still not better off there.

And of course, facebook recently, quite embarrassingly, revealed how they manipulate the "news" they propagate from one friend to another (they've always done that, but not always for science, which apparently is worse). And it's not just them.
Your window on the internet is being manipulated; if you think it's objective you're fooling yourself. On the internet you're a commodity, and you're being pushed around to get the most value out of you. Sure, you can try to resist it, but you can't escape the effect, you can only believe you do. That's the "great" thing about the internet, you can believe everything you want,. whether it's true or not, and find people and "evidence" to support it.
On the internet, the "news" is whatever you want it to be.
As long as you avoid the loudest voices, which are of course, typically, the same ones as in the real world, because money talks.


Quote:
We are told just enough so that we can be controlled.
The internet however has become too large to control and it allows you enough information to read between the lines.
If you believe that, you've been told just enough to be controlled.  ;D

It's an illusion to think that the amount of information matters much; it's more a problem than anything else because people can't read, let alone evaluate, it all. It's people's access to the information that matters. And that invariable goes through a few big names like google, bing (haha, just kidding), facebook etc. Control them and you control the vast majority of what people see. That's how China can easily control what their population sees of the internet: make everything that's objectionable hard enough to find that people don't bother.


Quote:
Newspapers are only good for crosswords and sport.
That's ridiculous.
They're also good for lining bird cages and house-training puppies.

But seriously, it comes across a bit paranoid. While there's a definite slant to the news, newspapers don't invent or cover up natural disasters, wars, etc. And manipulation of the news applies mainly to the news where the "powers that be" (readers,advertisers) have a vested interest in, which is just a selection of topics, and usually only a few facets of each topic.

And none of those problems go away by moving online, which adds its own problems rather than solve any the mass media have.
The only reason news on the internet might seem more objective is because it "happens to" correspond to what you believe -- because that's what you seek out.
Title: Re: Internet and Democracy
Post by Grimbal on Jul 18th, 2014, 3:08pm

on 07/16/14 at 22:04:00, JiNbOtAk wrote:
Admit it, the first thing that we searched for when we started using the internet was porn.

In my case, internet was still in ASCII.  Not very exciting.
My first encounter with internet is when I wanted to erase a file and instead of "rm", I typed "rn".

Back to the point.  It seems to me the Internet is moving from a model where people communicate with each other towards a model where people communicate with web sites.
Instead of exchanging videos, people upload them to youtube.  Other people then download them.
Instead of asking a friend when they look for a good restaurant, they ask Siri.

We might end up all tethered to a super AI that responds in a way to confirm our believs.  Or, worse, an AI that responds in a way to make us believe what the AI's owners want us to believe.  That tells us where to eat, where to go on holidays, and who is the candidate we should elect.
Title: Re: Internet and Democracy
Post by movie4fun on Aug 18th, 2014, 6:50pm
ofcorse more to freedom than democracy.


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