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Topic: Beautiful chess puzzle (Read 14911 times) |
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wowbagger
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Re: Beautiful chess puzzle
« Reply #25 on: Sep 3rd, 2003, 4:13am » |
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on Sep 3rd, 2003, 1:53am, THUDandBLUNDER wrote:
White has just played his 2nd silly move. How did the game go?  |
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Nice one, T&B!
How about this start of the game:
1. a4 a6
2. Nf3 a5
3. Ng1
Or a variation of the same theme, of course.
Please note that I am cautious about wording and other circumstances. 
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| « Last Edit: Sep 3rd, 2003, 4:22am by wowbagger » |
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wowbagger
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Re: Beautiful chess puzzle
« Reply #26 on: Sep 3rd, 2003, 4:20am » |
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on Sep 3rd, 2003, 3:37am, THUDandBLUNDER wrote:| Threads are often continued in this fashion with similar type puzzles. |
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This is true, but I'd say this tends to cause cross-posting and, thus, confusion. I prefer starting a new thread and posting a link in the "original" problem thread.
Quote:| But, as no one has replied, I will do as you suggest. |
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Considering the quote in Stefan's post, I guess this refers to Chess Endgame.
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Lightboxes
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Re: Beautiful chess puzzle
« Reply #27 on: Sep 25th, 2003, 11:50pm » |
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Regarding the orginal puzzle:::
I was trying to count the minimum number of moves needed to get to the position, then I realized that it takes two of white's units to get the two pawns (f5 and g6) to where they are. But there is another pawn that needs a white unit located at b4. The only unit that could effectively be is a rook. You'll see in a minute.
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1. for white and 2. for black
L for left side of the board and R for right side.
Adult = Q,B,N,R ; Child = pawn
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So, I start with obviously a minimum number of moves:
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11 moves: Both white and black pawns.
03 moves 2.k
05 2.N R
04 1.B R
03 1.B L
02 2.N L
04 1.N R
06 2.B Top
07 2.R Bottom
04 2.R Top
___If white's last move is to castle, then this can be proven:
04 1.N started on the left (C1) to sacrifice to help 2.Pxg6
04 1.Q started on the left (D1) to sacrifice to help 2.Pxf5
07 1.R H1 to sacrifice at b4.
___That way the pawn at a2 moves all the way up taking up
05 moves leading to a promotion to a rook to move to f8.
===
69 obvious moves.
***
04 Actually, I guess the rook at h1 could have sacrificed at g6
03 1.N at b1 to sacrifice at b4.
-04 which makes it:
===
65 moves proven to a minimum SO FAR...but I could be wrong.
So from here, I will prove more moves that are forced to occur and subtract any that may be proven in a shorter number of moves.
Explanation for the promotion of a pawn into a rook helps to explain that the black P at b4 took an "adult" piece because the white pawn at a2 can not help. So once the adult piece is gone, the pawn at a2 moves up to bring the adult piece back.
P.S. I don't have ALL the pieces listed, so it should be somewhat easy to get to 99 moves moved.
Added
I was wrong about the rooks in general because I was picturing them going through that diagonal path between the white pawns, but they could go through the pawns instead if e2 pawn has not moved yet.
:::
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| « Last Edit: Sep 26th, 2003, 1:18am by Lightboxes » |
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Andreas Lindmark
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Re: Beautiful chess puzzle
« Reply #28 on: Oct 1st, 2003, 10:30am » |
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Look at blacks bishop at g8. Am i the only one unable to figure out how it got there?
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Lightboxes
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Re: Beautiful chess puzzle
« Reply #29 on: Oct 1st, 2003, 2:00pm » |
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Regarding g8:
Black's pawn from h7 killed two white units to go to f5. Then the black bishop moved in zig-zaggedly. Then the pawn at f7 moved "up" one space.
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| « Last Edit: Oct 1st, 2003, 2:01pm by Lightboxes » |
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ThudnBlunder
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Re: Beautiful chess puzzle
« Reply #30 on: Oct 1st, 2003, 2:35pm » |
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Quote:| Then the pawn at f7 moved "up" one space. |
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I think you mean g7.
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Andreas Lindmark
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Re: Beautiful chess puzzle
« Reply #31 on: Oct 1st, 2003, 2:46pm » |
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on Oct 1st, 2003, 2:00pm, Lightboxes wrote:Regarding g8:
Black's pawn from h7 killed two white units to go to f5. Then the black bishop moved in zig-zaggedly. Then the pawn at f7 moved "up" one space. |
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True. I was too stuck thinking that the g7 pawn moved after the h7 pawn thereby blocking the way.
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ThudnBlunder
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Re: Beautiful chess puzzle
« Reply #32 on: Oct 1st, 2003, 7:44pm » |
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Quote:| I was trying to count the minimum number of moves needed to get to the position, |
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To claim a draw by the 50-move rule we must prove that 50 moves have been played
since the last capture or pawn move.
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| « Last Edit: Oct 1st, 2003, 11:19pm by ThudnBlunder » |
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wowbagger
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Re: Beautiful chess puzzle
« Reply #33 on: Oct 2nd, 2003, 2:20am » |
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on Oct 1st, 2003, 7:44pm, THUDandBLUNDER wrote:
To claim a draw by the 50-move rule we must prove that 50 moves have been played
since the last capture or pawn move. |
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We all know that, don't we? 
Are you trying to keep Lightboxes from pushing ahead with his investigation into the number of moves?
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ThudnBlunder
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Re: Beautiful chess puzzle
« Reply #34 on: Oct 2nd, 2003, 2:53am » |
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Quote:| We all know that, don't we? |
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Well, Lightboxes was calculating the number of moves necessary to arrive at the given position.
Rather, I think we should work out which was the last Black pawn move and then calculate how many moves must have been played since then.
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Re: Beautiful chess puzzle
« Reply #35 on: Oct 2nd, 2003, 9:17am » |
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50 rule nothing!
Bah humbug!
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Stefan Kneifel
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Re: Beautiful chess puzzle
« Reply #36 on: Oct 2nd, 2003, 12:01pm » |
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on Oct 2nd, 2003, 2:53am, THUDandBLUNDER wrote:Well, Lightboxes was calculating the number of moves necessary to arrive at the given position.
Rather, I think we should work out which was the last Black pawn move and then calculate how many moves must have been played since then. |
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Ooops so much answers, and I didn't reply... TB is almost right: since all captures were also pawn moves (only three captures), one can concentrate on the question, which pawn move (either white or black) was the last one.
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| « Last Edit: Oct 2nd, 2003, 12:03pm by Stefan Kneifel » |
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SWF
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Re: Beautiful chess puzzle
« Reply #37 on: Oct 2nd, 2003, 10:56pm » |
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on Sep 2nd, 2003, 11:02pm, SWF wrote:I am guessing that due to the complex sequence of moves required to arrive at this position, it can be shown that it has been 50 moves with no pawns moved since the third capture=draw.
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I checked the suggestion to use the 50 move rule, but the position can be reached only 14 moves after the last capture. Pieces are captured on moves 21, 36, and 46.
Edits shown in yellow to correct the error pointed out by ThudandBlunder
1. e2-e3 a7-a5
2. b2-b4 b8-c6
3. c1-b2 c6-d4
4. d1-g4 d4-f5
5. b4-b5 f5-h4
6. b2-d4 a8-a6
7. a2-a4 g8-f6
8. g1-f3 f6-d5
9. f3-e5 a6-c6
10. d4-b6 c6-c3
11. g4-b4 c3-b3
12. b1-c3 h4-f5
13. f1-d3 f5-h4
14. a1-a3 h4-g6
15. e1-e2 g6-h4
16. h1-a1 b3-b1
17. f2-f3 b1-f1
18. h2-h3 f1-f2(ch)
19. e2-e1 f6-h5 d5-f6
20. b6-a7 h5-f6 h8-g8
21. a7-b8 a5xb4
22. a4-a5 f6-e4
23. a5-a6 e4-f6
24. a6-a7 f6-d5
25. a7-a8(Q) d5-b6
26. a8-a6 b6-a8
27. a6-g6 b7-b6
28. d3-c4 c8-b7
29. c4-a2 b7-e4
30. c3-e2 e4-f5
31. e2-g3 f5-g4
32. a3-c3 d8-c8
33. c3-c4 c8-b7
34. a2-b3 b7-c6
35. b3-a4 c6-f6
36. g3-f5 h7xg6
36b. a1-a3 g8-h8
37. a3-a2 h8-h5
38. a2-a3 h5-g5
39. a3-a1 g4-h5
40. a1-b1 g5-g4
41. b1-a1 g4-d4
42. a1-c1 d4-d5
43. c4-g4 d5-d4
44. g4-g5 d4-g4
45. c1-a1 g6xf5
46. g5-g6 e8-d8
47. g6-h6 h5-g6
48. h6-h8 g6-h7
49. h8-g8 d8-c8
50. e5-g6 c8-b7
51. g6-h8 g7-g6
52. a1-b1 f8-h6
53. g8-f8 h6-f4
54. b1-c1 f4-h2
55. f3-f4 g4-g3
56. c1-a1 g3-f3
57. a1-a2 h2-g3
58. a2-a3 f6-g7
59. a3-a1 h7-g8
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| « Last Edit: Oct 3rd, 2003, 6:02pm by SWF » |
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ThudnBlunder
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Re: Beautiful chess puzzle
« Reply #38 on: Oct 2nd, 2003, 11:31pm » |
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BNC, perhaps you have missed a move out.
8. g1-f3 f6-d5 (The Black king's knight is now at d5.)
9. f3-e5 a6-c6
10. d4-b6 c6-c3
11. g4-b4 c3-b3
12. b1-c3 h4-f5
13. f1-d3 f5-h4
14. a1-a3 h4-g6
15. e1-e2 g6-h4
16. h1-a1 b3-b1
17. f2-f3 b1-f1
18. h2-h3 f1-f2(ch)
19. e2-e1 f6-h5 (And it now appears magically at f6.)
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| « Last Edit: Oct 2nd, 2003, 11:33pm by ThudnBlunder » |
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BNC
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Re: Beautiful chess puzzle
« Reply #39 on: Oct 3rd, 2003, 12:18am » |
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on Oct 2nd, 2003, 11:31pm, THUDandBLUNDER wrote:BNC, perhaps you have missed a move out.
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I think you meant SWF... This is way beyond my chess capabilities.
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Stefan Kneifel
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Re: Beautiful chess puzzle
« Reply #40 on: Oct 3rd, 2003, 3:20am » |
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Ok I have to give a further hint: With his first move in the given position, White proves that the position can't be reached by your moves...
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ThudnBlunder
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Re: Beautiful chess puzzle
« Reply #41 on: Oct 3rd, 2003, 4:38am » |
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on Oct 3rd, 2003, 3:20am, Stefan Kneifel wrote:| Ok I have to give a further hint: With his first move in the given position, White proves that the position can't be reached by your moves... |
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That move must be 1. 0-0-0 (castles queenside).
This would imply that the Black rooks must have got where they are via the g-file. So I think the idea is that White castles because the given position is still thus attainable. Hence the position requires more moves than 50 to arrive at since the last capture.
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| « Last Edit: Oct 3rd, 2003, 5:20am by ThudnBlunder » |
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Stefan Kneifel
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Re: Beautiful chess puzzle
« Reply #42 on: Oct 3rd, 2003, 7:08am » |
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on Oct 3rd, 2003, 4:38am, THUDandBLUNDER wrote:| That move must be 1. 0-0-0 (castles queenside). |
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Ok now for the beautiful part:
1. What was the last pawn move?
2. How many moves does it minimally take to get from there to the given position?
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| « Last Edit: Oct 3rd, 2003, 7:09am by Stefan Kneifel » |
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SWF
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Re: Beautiful chess puzzle
« Reply #43 on: Oct 3rd, 2003, 6:09pm » |
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on Oct 2nd, 2003, 11:31pm, THUDandBLUNDER wrote:| BNC, perhaps you have missed a move out. |
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Sorry about the error, but thank you for holding BNC responsible instead of me. That knight was making move wasting circles while positioning the white pieces, but I was careless in tracking its position. But it was easy to correct (the post above has been edited to fix).
The point I was trying to make is that that position is reachable in a way that white cannot force a draw. Now I see Stefan is saying white is able to castle, and then force a draw. From that board position there is no way of knowing that. One could just as easily say that white can force a draw by moving a1-a2 thus giving the same board position for the third time.
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ThudnBlunder
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Re: Beautiful chess puzzle
« Reply #44 on: Oct 3rd, 2003, 9:43pm » |
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Quote:| The point I was trying to make is that that position is reachable in a way that white cannot force a draw. |
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And well done for proving it. It must have taken quite some time and effort. I think the logic is:
Draw => 50-move rule must apply => White must still be able to castle.
(The last part is due to you.)
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| « Last Edit: Oct 3rd, 2003, 9:50pm by ThudnBlunder » |
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Stefan Kneifel
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Re: Beautiful chess puzzle
« Reply #45 on: Oct 4th, 2003, 9:10am » |
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on Oct 3rd, 2003, 6:09pm, SWF wrote:| From that board position there is no way of knowing that. |
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Not from the position, but from general study rules (they say that you're always allowed to castle, unless one can prove that castling isn't possible any more).
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wowbagger
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Re: Beautiful chess puzzle
« Reply #46 on: Oct 5th, 2003, 11:44am » |
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on Oct 3rd, 2003, 6:09pm, SWF wrote:
One could just as easily say that white can force a draw by moving a1-a2 thus giving the same board position for the third time. |
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That's an interesting point. If the given position is legal, so is the same position with a few queen/rook/bishop/knight moves repeated.
SWF, please use standard algebraic chess notation, if only to please me - and make me really consider your moves instead of just glancing at them.
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| « Last Edit: Oct 5th, 2003, 11:45am by wowbagger » |
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SWF
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Re: Beautiful chess puzzle
« Reply #47 on: Oct 5th, 2003, 5:09pm » |
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on Oct 4th, 2003, 9:10am, Stefan Kneifel wrote:
Not from the position, but from general study rules (they say that you're always allowed to castle, unless one can prove that castling isn't possible any more). |
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I would buy that if somebody can demonstrate castling is possible from that position. However, I am convinced that this position is not reachable in a way that would still permit castling:
Assuming the white king and queens's rook never moved (i.e. castling permitted), the knight at h4 must have moved there from f5 or g6 because there is a pawn at g2 the whole game, and moving from f3 would mean white ended a turn while in check. The black bishop at g3 can only move after pawns occupy f5 and g6. Therefore the h4 knight was there before that bishop ever moved. For the bishop to end up at g3, it must have arrived by having previously gone through either e3 or f4.
The white king's rook either ended up at f8 or was captured by a black pawn (in which case the f8 rook is a promoted white pawn). Either way, the h1 rook could not have gotten into position to reach f8 or be captured until white pawns are at e3 and f4 (e3 necessary for white king's bishop to get out of the way). By previous paragraph, e3 and f4 are occupied by pawns after there are black pawns at f5 and g6. This leaves no way for the white king's rook to have been captured, thus the rook at f8 is the white king's rook and not a promoted pawn.
Somehow that white rook has to get around the two black rooks with pawns already at e3, f4, f5, and g6. There is no way to do this. The only method with some hope is to not move the h2 pawn up until last and use h3 as a rook parking space while other rooks pass. However, the black bishop ruins any chance of that working.
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Stefan Kneifel
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Re: Beautiful chess puzzle
« Reply #48 on: Oct 6th, 2003, 2:08am » |
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on Oct 5th, 2003, 5:09pm, SWF wrote:| Somehow that white rook has to get around the two black rooks with pawns already at e3, f4, f5, and g6. There is no way to do this. |
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Congratulations, this is the crucial point! But: there is a way to get around the two black rooks: they can change their place at a2/b2/a3/b3...
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SWF
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Re: Beautiful chess puzzle
« Reply #49 on: Oct 6th, 2003, 7:41pm » |
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on Oct 6th, 2003, 2:08am, Stefan Kneifel wrote:
there is a way to get around the two black rooks: they can change their place at a2/b2/a3/b3...
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I must be missing something. Is there a flaw in the reasoning of the previous post? I don't see how the white rook can get past the black king. I hope there isn't some strange rule unknown to me, like a white pawn can be promoted to a black knight.
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