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        riddles >> hard >> White to Play and Win (II)
        
(Message started by: THUDandBLUNDER on Oct 2^nd, 2003, 7:26am)

Title: White to Play and Win (II)
Post by THUDandBLUNDER on Oct 2^nd, 2003, 7:26am

This is a standard chess puzzle.

Title: Re: White to Play and Win (II)
Post by Vaio on Oct 6^th, 2003, 8:58pm

Here goes my attempt at the solution (and at chess notation..)
[hide]
1. Nc6+ ...
now black has three possible choices, Kb6, Kb7, and Ka8.
If black moves to Ka8...
1. Nc6+ Ka8
2. e8=Q+ Kb7
3. Qd7+...
black has two options.. Kb6 or Ka8. if black moves to Ka8, white should play Qc8#. if black moves to Kb6..
3. Qd7+ Kb6
4. Bf2+ Nd4
5. Bxd4+ Kb5
6. Qd5#

Now, if black had originally moved to Kb6 or Kb7
1. Nc6+ Kb6
2. Ba5+...
black can move Kxc6, Kb7 or Kc5. if black moves Kb7 or Kc5, then white should do e8=Q since now, even if black moves Nc7+, white can Bxc7... and white should now have a good enough advantage to win. but if black does Kxc6, then:
2. Ba5+ Kxc6
3. e8=Q+...
this leaves black either Kb7 or Kc5.
3. e8=Q+ Kc5
4. Qc8+ Kd4
5. Bb6+ Ke4
6. Qc4+ Nd4
7. Qxd4#
or....
3. e8=Q+ Kb7
4. Qd7+... and i think that for any move black makes, there is a move white can make such that white wins (eventually, that is).

[/hide]
hopefully i didn't miss anything.. or maybe there's a black counter move that i didn't notice. and i hope the hide tags work

Title: Re: White to Play and Win (II)
Post by vaio on Oct 6^th, 2003, 9:07pm

oops, something happened and it posted 5 times... i tried removing it but seems like i can't. (when i posted, it took a while to load, i guess it was taking it's time posting it several times) anyways, sorry for the trouble but can someone remove the extra posts? (especially if i have some error in it...)

Title: Re: White to Play and Win (II)
Post by THUDandBLUNDER on Oct 6^th, 2003, 9:08pm

Quote:

hopefully i didn't miss anything..

You seem to have omitted the 1. Nc6+ Kb7 line.

('Remove' should work on your extra posts.)

Title: Re: White to Play and Win (II)
Post by towr on Oct 6^th, 2003, 11:42pm

on 10/06/03 at 21:07:11, vaio wrote:

sorry for the trouble but can someone remove the extra posts?

I removed the extra posts for you. If you register you can remove and edit your own posts and compete in getting the highest post-count ;).

on 10/06/03 at 21:08:35, THUDandBLUNDER wrote:

('Remove' should work on your extra posts.)

Only if he were a registered member.
At least it gives me a chance to be usefull as a moderator ;)

Title: Re: White to Play and Win (II)
Post by Lightboxes on Oct 12^th, 2003, 11:13pm

I need a hint, but a small hint.

Does the white bishop get captured by the end of the longest (if there are more than one variation) solution?

Title: Re: White to Play and Win (II)
Post by THUDandBLUNDER on Oct 13^th, 2003, 6:10am

Quote:

Does the white bishop get captured by the end of the longest (if there are more than one variation) solution?

BIG HINT: [hide]On the contrary, it delivers mate. [/hide]

Title: Re: White to Play and Win (II)
Post by THUDandBLUNDER on Nov 4^th, 2003, 2:23am

As nobody has solved this puzzle (or IMHO is likely to), here is a link to its solution.
It's well worth playing through!

http://chessbase.com/puzzle/puzz16b.htm

Title: Re: White to Play and Win (II)
Post by BNC on Nov 4^th, 2003, 4:26am

So, does it mean you're going to track us all down and kill us? ;)

Title: Re: White to Play and Win (II)
Post by THUDandBLUNDER on Nov 4^th, 2003, 6:28am

Quote:

So, does it mean you're going to track us all down and kill us?

;D

Not just yet. You see, I have exhausted that source.

What do you think of the solution? Neat, eh?

Title: Re: White to Play and Win (II)
Post by Barukh on Nov 5^th, 2003, 1:41am

on 11/04/03 at 06:28:12, THUDandBLUNDER wrote:

What do you think of the solution? Neat, eh?

The solution is indeed one of the most beautiful in its category I've ever seen.

However... Did you read the whole article, THUD&BLUNDER? There is a flaw in analysis, and this position is actually a draw! There were several attempts to modify it without destroying the beauty of the solution. I do not want to reiterate the artricle; the relevant parts are the paragraph starting with "A beautiful, fascinating problem..." and the Addendum.

Lesson learned: Beauty is very fragile :'(

Title: Re: White to Play and Win (II)
Post by THUDandBLUNDER on Nov 5^th, 2003, 3:11am

Quote:

However... Did you read the whole article, THUD&BLUNDER? There is a flaw in analysis, and this position is actually a draw!

Yes, when I posted the puzzle the solution was not available online. When I read the solution (needless to say, I couldn't solve it myself) I let it be. (Besides, we humble Untermenchen are unable to replace attachments.) But, as you indicate, starting with the b5 knight on e5 rescues the puzzle. As does a reader's suggestion of adding a pawn at a2.

Title: Re: White to Play and Win (II)
Post by unkwoop on Nov 5^th, 2003, 4:29am

I think you mean d5 in your mirrored board?

Title: Re: White to Play and Win (II)
Post by THUDandBLUNDER on Nov 5^th, 2003, 5:31am

Quote:

I think you mean d5 in your mirrored board?

Yes, you are right. How careless of me. :-[

Title: Re: White to Play and Win (II)
Post by Icarus on Nov 5^th, 2003, 3:34pm

on 11/05/03 at 03:11:17, THUDandBLUNDER wrote:

Besides, we humble Untermenchen are unable to replace attachments.

Alas, we Ubermenchen are unable to accomplish this either! Only the all-powerful administrator may do this task (unless this is one for which he must turn himself to the great root for assistance)!

Title: Re: White to Play and Win (II)
Post by Lightboxes on Nov 5^th, 2003, 8:37pm

Well well.
I haven't looked at the solution yet and closed my eyes on the position Thud gave. Anyway, if it's true that it's a draw?????...

I did come up with a draw solution but I'm not sure if the draw is fool proof. I obviously gave up on the draw solution since white is suppose to win.

Title: Re: White to Play and Win (II)
Post by THUDandBLUNDER on Nov 5^th, 2003, 11:36pm

Quote:

I did come up with a draw solution but I'm not sure if the draw is fool proof. I obviously gave up on the draw solution since white is suppose to win.

What was your drawing line after 1) Nc6+ Kb7?

Now begin again with the b5 knight on d5 and mate in 14. (No peeking!) :P