wu :: forums - Print Page


    
      
        wu :: forums
        (http://www.ocf.berkeley.edu/~wwu/cgi-bin/yabb/YaBB.cgi)
      

        riddles >> what happened >> Asimov’s Black Widowers – the cross of Lorrain
        
(Message started by: BNC on Dec 19^th, 2004, 11:54pm)

Title: Asimov’s Black Widowers – the cross of Lorrain
Post by BNC on Dec 19^th, 2004, 11:54pm

For this, my 1000’th post (!), I thought I’d try to do something special. So I’d like to share with you an idea I’ve had for some time now – I would like to try and “riddlize” a story by Isaac Asimov. If it will be interesting enough, I may try to do the same with other stories.

Introduction

1. Isaac Asimov

I should think everyone have at least heard of Isaac Asimov. He’s one of the most prolific science fiction authors ever. He is credited with two words he invented in the Oxford English dictionary. He created many worlds. He invented the three laws of robotics. And I can go on and on.

Most probably know that he was also a very creative scientific writer. What may be less of a common knowledge is the fact that he engaged in other forms of fiction. For example – how many of you knew he wrote fantasy and fairy tales? What surprised me the most, when I first saw it, what that he also wrote some “suspense” stories – the “Black Widowers” series.

2. The Black Widowers

The Black Widowers are a group of five, upper strata of society members (most with PhD degrees), all extremely intelligent and educated. And then, there is the sixth member – Henry, whom will be introduced shortly.

The Black Widowers meet once a month (I think), over a rich dinner. On each occasion, one of the members is the host, and pays for the dinner, and henceby get the privilege of setting the rules of the dinner. Only the five members are allowed to these dinners, with the one exception, that the host may invite a (male only) guest to the dinner. The guest sits through the dinner, and as payment, agrees to be subject to the “grilling” by the members – they may question him ruthlessly about anything they wish. “As it happens”, every guest has some kind of small mystery that bother him, and the Black Widowers try to help him solve it. They would ask him very through questions, revealing just about every possible fact about the case – and then fail to solve it. Here is where Henry comes in. Henry is the waiter in all of those dinners – and even though not a formal member, he is a “honors member”. It is Henry that invariantly solves the mystery.

3. The riddle (riddles?)

What I intend to do is take the bare facts of the case, and introduce them in the “What happened” fashion. I will then try top answer the question, to the spirit of the story. If it will not be possible to do so, I will say so. Also, note that Asimov himself admitted that some of the stories had better solution sent to him by readers. So, I will try to lead us to the solution proposed by Asimov – but it may not be the only one.

The riddle

The Amazing Larri (that’s how it spelled) is a magician. One night (it was ~2 AM) Larri missed a bus he intended to take from one work place to another. While waiting at the bus station, a woman, who has also missed the bus, came in, and engaged in a conversation with him. Soon, they found they had a lot of fun together. Then the bus came, and they set next to eachother. Across from them set a boy about 10 years old with his sleeping mother and watched them. Then, due to the late hour and the rocking of the bus, Larri fell asleep. When he woke up he discovered that the woman disappeared while he was asleep. He did not know anything personal about her except the note she left him before getting of the bus: “Thank you for a delightful time. Gwendolyn.” She also told him she would have to wake her bother up, because she was late.

The bus driver didn’t remember where she left the bus. The boy who was watching him saw that Larri was looking for the woman, and told him in French (the boy’s mother translated) “she descended at the place of the Cross of Lorraine”. The mother then told Larri that her son is a great hero-worshiper of President Charles de Gaulle, and knows the tale of Free French forces, so he could not have missed a sight like the Cross of Lorraine.

Larri tried to locate Gwendolyn. He thought of going to “the place of the Cross of Lorraine”, ask about her by name, ands describe her He traveled by car many times up and down the route of the bus, and looked in the local Yellow Pages, but didn’t see any name called “The Cross of Lorraine”.

Can you help Larri?

Title: Re: Asimov’s Black Widowers – the cross of Lorrain
Post by Icarus on Dec 20^th, 2004, 2:55pm

In what city does this occur?

Title: Re: Asimov’s Black Widowers – the cross of Lorrain
Post by BNC on Dec 20^th, 2004, 3:03pm

on 12/20/04 at 14:55:51, Icarus wrote:

In what city does this occur?

Irrelevant.

on May 1976, Asimov wrote:

He [Larri] adjusted himself in his seat and said, "I was done with my performance in an upstate town -- I'll give you the details when and if you insist, but for the moment they don't matter...I had to get to another small town some hundred fifty miles away...

Title: Re: Asimov’s Black Widowers – the cross of Lorrain
Post by Icarus on Dec 20^th, 2004, 4:45pm

(1) Is there a hospital or specialized medical facility on the route (the cross of Lorraine is a symbol of the fight against tuberculosis, so perhaps Gwendolyn's brother is in a care facility)
(2) Are there power lines along the route?

Title: Re: Asimov’s Black Widowers – the cross of Lorrain
Post by BNC on Dec 20^th, 2004, 10:32pm

on 12/20/04 at 16:45:55, Icarus wrote:

(1) Is there a hospital or specialized medical facility on the route (the cross of Lorraine is a symbol of the fight against tuberculosis, so perhaps Gwendolyn's brother is in a care facility)

No tuberculosis center. Larri traveled th road several times, and would not have missed a Cross of Lorraine sign.

Quote:

(2) Are there power lines along the route?

Probably, but none with precisely two crossbars.

Title: Re: Asimov’s Black Widowers – the cross of Lorrain
Post by Grimbal on Dec 21^st, 2004, 8:13am

Hm... would this scenario have been possible before 1943?

Title: Re: Asimov’s Black Widowers – the cross of Lorrain
Post by BNC on Dec 21^st, 2004, 9:06am

AFAIK, it wouldn't have been possible before 1972.

Title: Re: Asimov’s Black Widowers – the cross of Lorrain
Post by asterix on Dec 21^st, 2004, 9:20am

What is the French for "the place of the cross of Lorraine"? Could that have been a place name that wasn't supposed to be translated into English? Delacroix or something like that?

Title: Re: Asimov’s Black Widowers – the cross of Lorrain
Post by Sir Col on Dec 21^st, 2004, 10:41am

I wondered if there was a translation issue too, asterix, but unless I'm missing something, the likely French he would have spoken, "Elle est descendue à l'endroit de la Croix de Lorraine," is fairly unambiguous.

(1) Does the country where it took place make a difference?
In 1972, two years after Charles de Gaulle's death, a massive "Cross of Lorraine" was used as a memorial to him in the French town, Colombey-les-Deux-Eglises, the place where he spent his entire life.
http://www.bartleby.com/65/co/Colombey.html

(2) Was the comment about needing to wake her brother up (because she was late) written in the note?

(3) Can we be sure she wrote the note?
I'm not happy with that little boy and suspect he's interfered in some way: maybe he switched her real note?

Title: Re: Asimov’s Black Widowers – the cross of Lorrain
Post by BNC on Dec 21^st, 2004, 12:20pm

on 12/21/04 at 09:20:24, asterix wrote:

What is the French for "the place of the cross of Lorraine"? Could that have been a place name that wasn't supposed to be translated into English? Delacroix or something like that?

Asimov made it quite clear that Larri knows a little French, and that the boy's mother talked English quite well (it was one of the questions in the grilling, can't copy it right now).

on 12/21/04 at 10:41:31, Sir Col wrote:

(1) Does the country where it took place make a difference?
In 1972, two years after Charles de Gaulle's death, a massive "Cross of Lorraine" was used as a memorial to him in the French town, Colombey-les-Deux-Eglises, the place where he spent his entire life.
http://www.bartleby.com/65/co/Colombey.html

Well, it took place in the US. I guess hte country matters to a certain degree. I know for a fact the story could not have happend here (Israel). Probably other countries are disadvantaged as well. At the time the story was written I doubt many other countries could have been "in" the story, but these days I think there are quite a few.

Quote:

(2) Was the comment about needing to wake her brother up (because she was late) written in the note?

No, she mentioned it in the passing. It just served to show that she had family nearby she was going to.

Quote:

(3) Can we be sure she wrote the note?
I'm not happy with that little boy and suspect he's interfered in some way: maybe he switched her real note?

How can you suspect an innocent little boy ? !! >:(

Title: Re: Asimov’s Black Widowers – the cross of Lorrain
Post by asterix on Dec 21^st, 2004, 12:48pm

Was the cross a part of a corporate logo? I know of one that might fit, although I can't say that I've ever seen it displayed prominently enough to be "the place of the cross of Lorrain," unless they actually went past a factory.

Title: Re: Asimov’s Black Widowers – the cross of Lorrain
Post by BNC on Dec 21^st, 2004, 1:27pm

on 12/21/04 at 12:48:36, asterix wrote:

Yes indeed. Please bear in mind that the boy, being a "fan", was atuned to the Cross of Lorrain symbol.

Title: Re: Asimov’s Black Widowers – the cross of Lorrain
Post by Grimbal on Dec 22^nd, 2004, 4:13am

on 12/21/04 at 08:13:53, Grimbal wrote:

Hm... would this scenario have been possible before 1943?

The idea behind this was: there is a movie "The cross of Lorraine" that came out in 1943. I thought it could have been a cinema.

Anothe idea: That she needs to wake her brother might be an indication that she is living there and is not there just for some business, never to return. He should take the same bus again, maybe a little earlier, until he meets her again.

Title: Re: Asimov’s Black Widowers – the cross of Lorrain
Post by BNC on Dec 22^nd, 2004, 6:14am

It is possible, but Larri is looking for a more direct approach. See for example:

on May 1976, Asimov wrote:

Halsted said, "Mathematically speacking, it's a finite problem. You could try every post office along the whole route."
Larri sighed. "If I get desperate enough, I'll try. But, mathematically speaking, that would be so inelegant. Why can't I find the Cross of Lorraine?"

Title: Re: Asimov’s Black Widowers – the cross of Lorrain
Post by BNC on Dec 27^th, 2004, 5:30am

Need a hint?

Title: Re: Asimov’s Black Widowers – the cross of Lorrain
Post by Padzok on Dec 30^th, 2004, 12:33pm

on 12/27/04 at 05:30:43, BNC wrote:

Need a hint?

Yep, hint sounds good.

To recap :

1. Did the boy see a Cross of Lorraine?
2. Or was he mistaken?
3. Did the boy only see part of a larger sign?
4. Did the boy see a sign for an orgainisation?
5. Was it a commercial company?
6. Was it a transport company?
7. Was it a charity?
8. Was it an advertisement?
9. Was it a sign on a building which housed the particular organisation?
10. Was it an organisation which began in the US?
11. Was it founded in 1972?
12. Is it now multi-national.

Sorry, for so many questions. ::) I thought it'd be good to get the ball rolling again.

Title: Re: Asimov’s Black Widowers – the cross of Lorrain
Post by BNC on Dec 30^th, 2004, 3:23pm

on 12/30/04 at 12:33:50, Padzok wrote:

Yep, hint sounds good.

Hint (hidden):
::[hide]
Think of a tilted cross
[/hide]::

Quote:

To recap :

1. Did the boy see a Cross of Lorraine?
2. Or was he mistaken?

Well, yes he did see a (sort of) Cross of Lorraine, but not one intended as such.

Quote:

3. Did the boy only see part of a larger sign?

yes

Quote:

4. Did the boy see a sign for an orgainisation?

yes

Quote:

5. Was it a commercial company?

yes

Quote:

6. Was it a transport company?

no

Quote:

7. Was it a charity?

no

Quote:

8. Was it an advertisement?

Sort of...

Quote:

9. Was it a sign on a building which housed the particular organisation?

Sort of...

Quote:

10. Was it an organisation which began in the US?

yes

Quote:

11. Was it founded in 1972?

Sort of... it started earlier, but changed somewhat in 1972.

Quote:

12. Is it now multi-national.

It operates now in various cauntries.

Title: Re: Asimov’s Black Widowers – the cross of Lorrain
Post by BNC on Jan 10^th, 2005, 2:00pm

on 12/19/04 at 23:54:28, BNC wrote:

If it will be interesting enough, I may try to do the same with other stories.

OK, I can take a hint :'(.

Title: Re: Asimov’s Black Widowers – the cross of Lorrain
Post by Sir Col on Jan 10^th, 2005, 2:48pm

Be assured, BNC, I am very interested in this one, but I'm all out of ideas; I'm waiting for someone else to make a helpful insight.

Title: Re: Asimov’s Black Widowers – the cross of Lorrain
Post by Padzok on Jan 10^th, 2005, 4:24pm

Was it a power company?

Was it a communications company?

Was it a telephone company?

He only saw part of a sign, and that part looked like a Cross of Lorraine....was the part of the sign he saw:

a) part of a letter?
b) part of more than one letter?
c) part of a digit?
d) part of more than one digit?
e) part of a mathematical symbol?
f) part of more than one mathematical symbol?
g) some combination of 2 or more of the above?

Was it a "not equal to" symbol?

Title: Re: Asimov’s Black Widowers – the cross of Lorrain
Post by BNC on Jan 10^th, 2005, 10:19pm

on 01/10/05 at 16:24:18, Padzok wrote:

Was it a power company?

Formally, it's defined as a energy and chemical business... not a power company. But it's main product will supply the power to certain "entities" (::[hide]machines[/hide]:: ).

Quote:

Was it a communications company?

No

Quote:

Was it a telephone company?

No

Quote:

He only saw part of a sign, and that part looked like a Cross of Lorraine....was the part of the sign he saw:

a) part of a letter?
b) part of more than one letter?
c) part of a digit?
d) part of more than one digit?
e) part of a mathematical symbol?
f) part of more than one mathematical symbol?
g) some combination of 2 or more of the above?

In the wide sence, I guess it would be (b)
Hint: ::[hide]He saw part of the company's logo. That part is composed of two letters.[/hide]::

Quote:

Was it a "not equal to" symbol?

Nice... but no.

Title: Re: Asimov’s Black Widowers – the cross of Lorrain
Post by Padzok on Jan 11^th, 2005, 12:08am

Is it a battery manufacturer?
Everlast?
Everready?
Duracell?

Title: Re: Asimov’s Black Widowers – the cross of Lorrain
Post by BNC on Jan 11^th, 2005, 12:44am

Sorry, no... different type of power.

Title: Re: Asimov’s Black Widowers – the cross of Lorrain
Post by asterix on Jan 11^th, 2005, 7:43am

I was the one who originally suggested it was a logo, but I guess I had the wrong one in mind. A standard Lorraine cross doesn't necessarily have two crossbars of the same length, so I figured it was
http://www.thebestlinks.com/images/e/e2/Nabisco.png

which, by the way, changed their name in 1971, not 1972. But this logo does have something in common with the right answer.

Title: Re: Asimov’s Black Widowers – the cross of Lorrain
Post by BNC on Jan 11^th, 2005, 9:34am

on 01/11/05 at 07:43:37, asterix wrote:

But this logo does have something in common with the right answer.

It most certainly does!

Title: Re: Asimov?s Black Widowers ? the cross of Lorrain
Post by brainscan on Jan 19^th, 2005, 6:09am

so how can we exactly help poor Larri? My brain already hurts.
Can't find a solution.

1. Did Gwendolyn leave the bus at a branch of Nabisco? (as i get it, the company-name changed to Nabisco 1971). Is the company name relevant?

2. Is there a personal relationship of Gwendolyn with this company?

Title: Re: Asimov?s Black Widowers ? the cross of Lorrain
Post by BNC on Jan 19^th, 2005, 6:45am

on 01/19/05 at 06:09:57, brainscan wrote:

so how can we exactly help poor Larri?

You can start by finding the right company name...

Quote:

1. Did Gwendolyn leave the bus at a branch of Nabisco? (as i get it, the company-name changed to Nabisco 1971). Is the company name relevant?

Not Nabisco, but yes to the right company

Quote:

2. Is there a personal relationship of Gwendolyn with this company?

With one of its empoyees.

Title: Re: Asimov’s Black Widowers – the cross of Lorrain
Post by Sir Col on Jan 19^th, 2005, 11:44am

Unless I am just not very observant, in England I haven't heard of the company, Nabisco. But doing some research there seems to be a connection with a man called Adolphus Green who, after acquiring other major biscuit manufacturing companies, founded the National Biscuit company in 1898; in 1971 it changed its name to Nabisco.

The image/logo was originally used in 1898 on their new Uneeda biscuit/cracker as an indication of their revolutionary, and patented, "in-er-seal" packaging method to keep biscuits fresher for longer.

1. I am guessing that the link with the employee is not connected with a senior member of the company as much as someone who just happened to work for the company?

Or is the name of the employee significant?

2. Is the surname (i) Kraft, (ii) Cheek, (iii) Green, (iv) Jacobs, (v) Mayer, (vi) Post, (vii) Roselius, (viii) Suchard, or (ix) Tobler?

Title: Re: Asimov’s Black Widowers – the cross of Lorrain
Post by BNC on Jan 19^th, 2005, 3:00pm

1. Just a simple employee
2. Not relevant.

Those are simply not the company identified by Asimov... not less good. I do think that in the states the original one is much more common.

Title: Re: Asimov’s Black Widowers – the cross of Lorrain
Post by Icarus on Jan 19^th, 2005, 7:12pm

Much more common than Nabisco? That would take some doing! Alas that I pay so little attention to advertising. I am sure I will recognize the symbol when it is revealed, but am highly unlikely to think of it on my own.

Title: Re: Asimov?s Black Widowers ? the cross of Lorrain
Post by brainscan on Jan 19^th, 2005, 10:48pm

I was on the same track as Sir Col (great research by the way! ;) ). Trying to identify the history of Nabisco. I thought the sister of a founder or something was named Gwendolyn. Didn't find anything like that.

I just realized that the two "X"s in the logo of Exxon have a "Cross of Lorrain"-like structure.

http://www.exxon.com/USA-English/gFM/home_Contact_Us/homepage.asp

So BNC, is there a connection to Exxon? That would be a company i know. Nabisco is totally unknown in Switzerland.

Title: Re: Asimov’s Black Widowers – the cross of Lorrain
Post by BNC on Jan 20^th, 2005, 1:15am

Yes indeed.

And a gas station is likely to be seen on the side of the road even on a dark night.

********************

So, what do you think? Care for more of these?

Title: Re: Asimov?s Black Widowers ? the cross of Lorrain
Post by brainscan on Jan 20^th, 2005, 1:43am

So that was it? Gwendolyn got off at the gas station? So Larri has to look for a gas station and he will find beautiful Gwendolyn. Her brother works at this gas station.

I liked this post very much! Didn't know Asimov also had this kind of stories. More of it for me BNC! Had a lot uf fun with that. :D

Title: Re: Asimov’s Black Widowers – the cross of Lorrain
Post by BNC on Jan 20^th, 2005, 9:16am

on May 1976, Asimov wrote:

"The one thing," said Henry, "that si designed to be seen, without trouble, day or night, on any highway is a gas station sign. The child saw the the Cross of Lorraine in this one, but Mr. Larri, retracting the route, sees only a double X, since he reads the entire word as Exxon. All signs showing this name, whether on the highway, in advertisements, or on credit cards, show the name in this fashion."
Now Larri caught fire. "You mean, Henry, that if I go into the Exxon stations en route and ask for Gwendolyn..."
"The proprietor of one of them is likely to be her brother, and there would not be more than five or six at most to inquire at."
"Good God, Henry," said Larri, "you're a magician."
"Merely simpleminded," said Henry, "though perhaps in the nonpejorative sense."