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Topic: Fate -- Fact or Fiction? (Read 14106 times) |
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rmsgrey
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Re: Fate -- Fact or Fiction?
« Reply #25 on: Dec 9th, 2004, 9:30am » |
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And you needn't have actually been Napoleon or Cleopatra - merely someone who believed they were (or by now someone who was regressed to someone who believed they were)
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OnlyAnEgg
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Re: Fate -- Fact or Fiction?
« Reply #26 on: Dec 23rd, 2004, 6:40am » |
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[quote author=rmsgrey link=board=truth;num=1100633181;start=0#18 date=11/23/04 at 04:44:09]Speaking of incredible machines, one of the best UK TV advertisements in recent years consisted of some (most? all?) of the parts of a car carefully laid out in a row (in advance) and the first component given a gentle push, then each component in turn nudging the next along the whole row in such a way that it repeatedly appeared to be in danger of stopping entirely.
It's truly entertaining, and may be an excellent example of pure mechanical determinism. I was given the site as "Amazing Honda Ad", and the URL is:
http://www.ebaumsworld.com/honda-ad.html
This models quite nicely the Newtonian "clockwork" view of the universe, which I liked as a pre-teenager. A few decades and many surprises later, I now have far more respect for the probabilistic model for the physical universe. Just because the probability of an event is quite high (0.998 or so) doesn't make it certain, but you won't find me betting against it. Still, I know now about the Law of Perversity of the Universe, and give it all due respect.
I'm enjoying this thread immensely, and trying to dredge up old training & connections the Jesuits gave me in the 60's. Whew!
OnlyAnEgg
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spanchap
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Re: Fate -- Fact or Fiction?
« Reply #27 on: Mar 25th, 2007, 6:14pm » |
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Any action taken by a human being is either a) because of genes/past conditioning or b) inspite of genes/past conditioning or c) a combination of a and b.
If it is (a), then free will is illusory. If it is (b), it is even more scary - somebody/something other than you (fate/chance?) is making you choose that action since nothing in your genes or your past conditioning would suggest that you would choose that action. In essence something that is not "you" (i.e., something that is over and beyond a combination of your past conditioning [skills, education, memories, upbringing etc.] and genes) is making the decision.
Either which way there is not much going for free will. Either there is no free will or at best there is "constrained" free will (governed by chance) in which case it is not exactly "free" will.
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| « Last Edit: Mar 25th, 2007, 6:25pm by spanchap » |
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Icarus
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Re: Fate -- Fact or Fiction?
« Reply #28 on: Mar 25th, 2007, 7:32pm » |
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And what makes you claim that the "somebody/something" is "other than you"? And how do you support your claim that "genes/past conditioning" is contrary to free will? This would only be the case if their action was completely deterministic, which by our best evidence is not true.
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towr
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Re: Fate -- Fact or Fiction?
« Reply #29 on: Mar 26th, 2007, 1:27am » |
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Our best evidence shows that our behaviour is at least in part determined by genetic factors and past experience (rearing, etc). And obviously our behaviour is constrained, we can't just will ourselves to fly (well, ok it's an assumption; the universe might be vastly different then we experienced it so far. Maybe we are in the matrix. But let's assume not).
There is still room for a speck of free will, it seems. Our environment doesn't determine how we behave; our internal state has some say in it too. But what is the nature of our internal state?
One might assume some soul/spirit, a mental entity free of the physical world; and let's ignore how the physical interaction with the body is. Now what would we require to have a free will? That I have a free will.
There has to be something that can be the 'I', something constant (though also changing). There has to be a sort of behaviour to this mental entity that makes it identifiable as me, rather than random spasmic behaviour. It needn't entirely be deterministic though, it may be a stochastic behaviour. But it will in a sense have to be predictable in so far as I am the one willing an action. Because if the action is a random impulse you can't rightly say it was willed. In fact I'd go as far to say that the more my will plays a role, the more deterministic the action has to be. There mustn't be a random component to it, it must be solely me that determines it.
Any randomness in my behaviour should come only via an input, and not from within the core me. So at the core I'd say I'd have to be deterministic to have a real will. And it will be free in the sense that it is solely determined by me (though based on input from the physical world).
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spanchap
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Re: Fate -- Fact or Fiction?
« Reply #30 on: Mar 26th, 2007, 4:09pm » |
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on Mar 25th, 2007, 7:32pm, Icarus wrote:| And what makes you claim that the "somebody/something" is "other than you"? And how do you support your claim that "genes/past conditioning" is contrary to free will? This would only be the case if their action was completely deterministic, which by our best evidence is not true. |
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I am assuming that "me" is a combination of all the past experiences/conditioning and genes. Can you think of anything else that would constitute "me"? In essence, I am arguing that my "identity" (what I call "me") HAS to be based on the past. Now, you could say that is an assumption and not something that is undoubtably axiomatic. But I find it hard to pinpoint "who I am" apart from my experiences/conditioning/memory etc and genes. If there is something other than my past conditioning and genes that is "me", then it has to be something that is "untainted" by my genetic tendencies or conditioning. If that untainted "me" is acting through me, it is not exactly "my" free will - it is an extraneous "free will" acting through me.
I am not arguing for determinism. My only assertion is that there is no "individual free" will. If there is a "free will", it is nonindividualistic and non specific to the individual who is thinking that it is his free will that is leading to an action. The other scenario is that the "free" will is tainted by my past conditioning and genes and is not actually "free".
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Three Hands
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Re: Fate -- Fact or Fiction?
« Reply #31 on: Mar 26th, 2007, 4:15pm » |
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Is your personality what dictates how you act, or is how you act what describes your personality?
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spanchap
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Re: Fate -- Fact or Fiction?
« Reply #32 on: Mar 26th, 2007, 4:30pm » |
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on Mar 26th, 2007, 4:15pm, Three Hands wrote:| Is your personality what dictates how you act, or is how you act what describes your personality? |
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Actually both.
Action = f (Past Conditioning, Genes, External Stimuli)
Personality/Identity = f(Past Conditioning, Genes). Any action you take immediately becomes part (however miniscule) of your identity/personality
To summarize my earlier points, assume (this has to be an assumption and it is not clearly apparent that it could be considered axiomatic) that
Action = f (Past Conditioning, Genes, External Stimuli)
If Action is based on the first two factors, it is not "free" and if it is based on the last factor (inspite of the first two factors and not because of the first two factors), it is not really "my" free will.
I know that the above scheme is in some sense indefensible as it assumes a lot about the impetus for an action and what constitutes "me" - but at the least one can say that this is one plausible view of free will as it relates to our actions among many other plausible views.
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| « Last Edit: Mar 26th, 2007, 5:43pm by spanchap » |
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JiNbOtAk
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Re: Fate -- Fact or Fiction?
« Reply #33 on: Mar 26th, 2007, 9:22pm » |
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Just a question, since most people refer to free will one way or another in their post, what exactly is free will ? How do you define it ?
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ThudnBlunder
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Re: Fate -- Fact or Fiction?
« Reply #34 on: Mar 27th, 2007, 12:29am » |
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on Mar 26th, 2007, 9:22pm, JiNbOtAk wrote:| Just a question, since most people refer to free will one way or another in their post, what exactly is free will ? How do you define it ? |
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Although free to do so, they haven't decided yet. 
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| « Last Edit: Mar 27th, 2007, 1:00am by ThudnBlunder » |
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towr
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Re: Fate -- Fact or Fiction?
« Reply #35 on: Mar 27th, 2007, 1:11am » |
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on Mar 26th, 2007, 9:22pm, JiNbOtAk wrote:| Just a question, since most people refer to free will one way or another in their post, what exactly is free will ? How do you define it ? |
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Like many concepts there can't be a definition. It's meaning is determined by languages-games.
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| « Last Edit: Mar 27th, 2007, 1:14am by towr » |
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spanchap
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Re: Fate -- Fact or Fiction?
« Reply #36 on: Mar 27th, 2007, 10:11am » |
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on Mar 26th, 2007, 9:22pm, JiNbOtAk wrote:| Just a question, since most people refer to free will one way or another in their post, what exactly is free will ? How do you define it ? |
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Well one definition could be: " Free Will" is the exercise of choice that is not artificially constrained by the individual's conditioning or genes.
But the probability of anybody agreeing 100% with the above definition is slimmer than the probability of the Knicks winning the NBA championship this year 
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Three Hands
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Re: Fate -- Fact or Fiction?
« Reply #37 on: Mar 27th, 2007, 1:32pm » |
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The definition of free will largely depends on what your understanding of "free" is. "Will" is generally seen as something like "Power to affect change", in the sense that without will, change cannot be affected. Since humans can be said to affect change, most agree that humans are beings with will. The question then becomes whether humans are free in the exercising of their will, or whether they follow some systematic approach, or some complex set of rules, or act entirely randomly.
Different people have different ideas about what freedom is - largely based around what kind of physical/natural constraints we should expect "free" to have. For example, one constraint is to do with whether you could affect change if you were transported back in time - could you kill your grandfather?
For simplicity, one feature of free will would be, in everyday, normal circumstances (as in actions you take are not about to cause temporal paradoxes or similar headaches), that you were capable of acting in a different manner, but you chose (rather than were randomly determined) to act in a given way. Hence, if the same event occurred again, with exactly the same conditions, that you could choose to act in a different way.
Spanchap, in response to your view on personality and actions, if your actions are generated by a function of your personality and external stimuli, then are incorporated into your personality, then isn't your personality merely being affected by external stimuli, rather than your actions? In that sense, where is any freedom gained? - you end up instead as something like a complex state-changing machine, where what determines the outcome is what state the machine starts in (your genes) and what has been inputted into the machine (past experience). In that sense, you could not act in a different way, unless there is some other factor which is involved in forming your actions which allows for choice.
My own answer to the question I posed in my previous post is that how you act is what describes your personality, but I take a reasonably strong view of what "free" means, and believe that we are free. I could be entirely wrong, however.
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spanchap
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Re: Fate -- Fact or Fiction?
« Reply #38 on: Mar 27th, 2007, 1:56pm » |
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on Mar 27th, 2007, 1:32pm, Three Hands wrote: In that sense, where is any freedom gained? - you end up instead as something like a complex state-changing machine, where what determines the outcome is what state the machine starts in (your genes) and what has been inputted into the machine (past experience). In that sense, you could not act in a different way, unless there is some other factor which is involved in forming your actions which allows for choice.
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You are absolutely right in concluding that the scheme I laid out is similar to a complex state-changing machine where in essence "free"dom is non existent. Even though I had the "illusion" of being able to choose from a discrete set of options, given exactly the same situation to the minutest detail, I could not at the time I made the choice have behaved any differently. If I did then there is randomness involved which is not something that is "me" which goes back to my (debatable and ungrounded) assertion that either there is no "free" will or if there is "free" will then it is not personal free will. The randomness which crystallizes the action is coming from without and not within and so "I" cannot take credit for that.
One digression into what is potentially non scientific and in the realm of opinions. I have a strong suspicion that my past and my view of the future using the past as a lens, almost always influences the decision I take in the present. If somebody who had a different past where presented the same situation, he/she would almost certainly react differently. This suggests that the choice may be illusion.
In any case, one would never know as none of these hypotheses is testable.
Thanks for sharing your thoughts.
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rmsgrey
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Re: Fate -- Fact or Fiction?
« Reply #39 on: Mar 28th, 2007, 6:48am » |
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An interesting alternate approach to free will:
Consider a variation on Pascal's Wager, replacing "God" with "Free Will":
If Free Will exists and I believe in it, then I'm right.
If Free Will exists and I don't believe in it, then I'm wrong.
If Free Will doesn't exist, then I have no choice in what I believe, so there's no credit or blame for getting it right (no more than we'd praise a clock for showing the correct time or censure it for being wrong - we'd credit or blame the manufacturers)
So if I have a choice in what to believe about Free Will, I should believe in it.
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