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(Message started by: BenVitale on Dec 24th, 2009, 11:34am)
Title: Economics of dating
Post by BenVitale on Dec 24th, 2009, 11:34am
When you're on a first date and the waiter or waitress brings the check, around 50% of women do a polite "reach" for their wallets but let the guy pay.

What do you, guys, think of the reach?
Do you appreciate the polite gesture? Or not so much?

Some may call it a polite gesture, but I call it the 'reach' bluff

How do you rationalize this?
Title: Re: Economics of dating
Post by gotit on Dec 24th, 2009, 11:52am
To me, a bluff is something which makes you do what you had not planned to do. And I guess that on a date, a guy already has it in his mind that he has to pay the bill. So I wont call it a bluff.
Title: Re: Economics of dating
Post by BenVitale on Dec 24th, 2009, 2:57pm
Why is it not a bluff?

A bluff is to mislead or deceive; to pretend.

She may pretend to reach for her purse, believing the guy won't actually take her up on it. Or, her action may be a  bone fide 'reach'.

She'll be right 90 to 95% of the time.

Would you call her bluff, that is, make her do what her action says she will do?
Title: Re: Economics of dating
Post by towr on Dec 25th, 2009, 2:35am

on 12/24/09 at 14:57:09, BenVitale wrote:
Why is it not a bluff?
He said what he considered a bluff to be, and your scenario does not fit with his definition.
Title: Re: Economics of dating
Post by JiNbOtAk on Dec 29th, 2009, 3:19am

on 12/24/09 at 14:57:09, BenVitale wrote:
Would you call her bluff, that is, make her do what her action says she will do?


Sure, if I'm not planning on paying. Unless she thought me not reaching for my wallet in return is a bluff to see whether she's bluffing...
Title: Re: Economics of dating
Post by BenVitale on Dec 29th, 2009, 4:32am

on 12/29/09 at 03:19:11, JiNbOtAk wrote:
Sure, if I'm not planning on paying.


Then, what happens? Game over for you. The chances you'll see her again are slim to none. She may not want to go on a second date, unless you promise to make up for it.


Quote:
Unless she thought me not reaching for my wallet in return is a bluff to see whether she's bluffing...


I see it as a signaling games (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Signaling_games)

Read also: Signalling theory (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Signalling_theory)

... with honest signals and dishonest signals.

The problem is we, men, are expected to pay for the first date -- at least. It's part of the old-fashioned mating dance.

If you look annoyed or spend few seconds thinking about the bill.

Then, guess what?

You'll give the impression of going thru the motions of courtesy.

Result: a strike against you.

The woman's reach may be transparent, yes, but necessary. The man will feel good about it.

In flirting, courtship there's always an element of deception at the beginning.

Let's not forget our old evolutionary urge to provide for the females.  In the animal kingdom, the female of any species gravitates toward a mate who can provide for her and any potential offspring
Title: Re: Economics of dating
Post by JiNbOtAk on Dec 31st, 2009, 2:46am
Again, the situation you're talking about is only relevant if it's the guy who is interested in making an impression on the girl. If, however, it's the girl who asked him out on a date, and the guy is really not that interested in the first place, it could be considered a strike against the girl if she didn't pay, eh ? (Which is what I was getting at when I said I'm not planning on paying)
Title: Re: Economics of dating
Post by BenVitale on Dec 31st, 2009, 4:24am

on 12/31/09 at 02:46:34, JiNbOtAk wrote:
Again, the situation you're talking about is only relevant if it's the guy who is interested in making an impression on the girl.


Well, I said that because since the beginning of mankind, man provided food and shelter to show a woman he was interested. We see this type of behavior with Chimps and other animals.


Quote:
If, however, it's the girl who asked him out on a date, and the guy is really not that interested in the first place, it could be considered a strike against the girl if she didn't pay, eh ?



Quote:
(Which is what I was getting at when I said I'm not planning on paying)


Yes, but just imagine her embarrassment ... she'll lose face. You won't see her again, she will trash you, she will say bad things about you behind your back... you may lose a lot more.

How about establishing jokingly the rule or a compromise, " Whoever invites pays"?

You'll see if that offer doesn't resonate well with her.
Then, provide offer #2: split the check with her.
Title: Re: Economics of dating
Post by JiNbOtAk on Dec 31st, 2009, 5:14am

on 12/31/09 at 04:24:11, BenVitale wrote:
You won't see her again, she will trash you, she will say bad things about you behind your back... you may lose a lot more.


Do you always have this low opinion of women, or is there a particular one ?  :P
Title: Re: Economics of dating
Post by BenVitale on Dec 31st, 2009, 7:52am

on 12/31/09 at 05:14:18, JiNbOtAk wrote:
Do you always have this low opinion of women, or is there a particular one ?  :P


Actually, I don't. I like women.

I'm responding to your statement


Quote:
(Which is what I was getting at when I said I'm not planning on paying)


It's better to pay at least 50% of the bill so that she can save face, since she's the one asking you out.

Please read again my posts at the beginning.

Nowadays, men and women are a bit confused about equal opportunity/gender equality .... and if you try to apply it to dating, then there will be an awkward moment.
Title: Re: Economics of dating
Post by ima1trkpny on Dec 31st, 2009, 12:34pm
BenVitale, is it just me or are you asking him what he thinks and then telling him "the way it is"? :P

It may or may not be a bluff depending on the woman. Me, personally, I always offer to split and if the guy decides he wants to pick up the tab I'll let him (some of you guys get mega insulted if their date pays) but I positively insist on splitting the bill if I decide I'm not into the guy or he's the type that thinks if he pays for a meal at McDonald's he gets in my pants >.<

Anyway, the point is it can be as awkward deciding who pays as you and your date make it :P "Communication is key"
Title: Re: Economics of dating
Post by ThudanBlunder on Dec 31st, 2009, 12:47pm

on 12/31/09 at 12:34:06, ima1trkpny wrote:
....or he's the type that thinks if he pays for a meal at McDonald's he gets in my pants >.<

Yeah, I've suspected all along that McDonalds are full of transvestites.  ::)
Title: Re: Economics of dating
Post by BenVitale on Jan 1st, 2010, 4:23pm

on 12/31/09 at 12:34:06, ima1trkpny wrote:
BenVitale, is it just me or are you asking him what he thinks and then telling him "the way it is"? :P


A bit of both.  JiNbOtAk thought that I had a low opinion of women, and I had to respond and correct that view.


Quote:
It may or may not be a bluff depending on the woman. Me, personally, I always offer to split and if the guy decides he wants to pick up the tab I'll let him (some of you guys get mega insulted if their date pays) but I positively insist on splitting the bill if I decide I'm not into the guy or

[quote]
he's the type that thinks if he pays for a meal at McDonald's he gets in my pants >.<


I wouldn't take a woman to McDo or any other fast food joint, or to some greasy spoon eating place on a First date.

I know that the key to an excellent date isn't wine, the restaurant, or even your outfit -- it's your ability to talk - and, more importantly, to listen


Quote:
Anyway, the point is it can be as awkward deciding who pays as you and your date make it :P "Communication is key"


I agree 100% with you.
I will add that courtesy is important ... I will offer to split the costs, but if my date insists on picking up the entire tab (which happened to me on few occasions) I wouldn't put up too much of a fight. I just made sure to thank them and promised to treat them next time (which I did).

I'm trying to apply economic theory and game theory to everyday life situations.

Let's not forget that our evolutionary biology gets in the way: man provided food and shelter to show a woman he was interested.
Title: Re: Economics of dating
Post by towr on Jan 2nd, 2010, 2:24pm

on 01/01/10 at 16:23:32, BenVitale wrote:
I'm trying to apply economic theory and game theory to everyday life situations.
Here's a tip: don't.
It'll cost you more than it's worth, so it's an irrational thing to do.  :P
Title: Re: Economics of dating
Post by BenVitale on Jan 2nd, 2010, 3:42pm
Well, I figure if a model doesn't fit reality, then we adjust the model or create a new one ... Reality or the world we experience on a daily basis is our Lab.
Title: Re: Economics of dating
Post by ima1trkpny on Jan 3rd, 2010, 5:15am

on 01/02/10 at 15:42:56, BenVitale wrote:
Reality or the world we experience on a daily basis is our Lab.


Nice thought lol but I want to see you tell your dates that they're your lab rats
;D
Title: Re: Economics of dating
Post by towr on Jan 3rd, 2010, 6:37am
You could probably make that work. There are worse pick-up lines than "would you like to help me with an experiment?"
And you can dress it up in a way that even if they don't enjoy the date itself, it will still be worthwhile for them to participate and help you find other participants.
Title: Re: Economics of dating
Post by BenVitale on Jan 3rd, 2010, 10:00am

on 01/03/10 at 05:15:13, ima1trkpny wrote:
Nice thought lol but I want to see you tell your dates that they're your lab rats
;D


No way Jose' ... I would be shooting in my foot. It is not something you can tell about it.... I'm a big fan of game theory, but I don't say that. Since I'm a math student, I just say, I study math.
Title: Re: Economics of dating
Post by BenVitale on Jan 3rd, 2010, 10:12am

on 01/03/10 at 06:37:13, towr wrote:
You could probably make that work. There are worse pick-up lines than "would you like to help me with an experiment?"
And you can dress it up in a way that even if they don't enjoy the date itself, it will still be worthwhile for them to participate and help you find other participants.


Come on man, I'm more subtle in the real world.

Have you ever dated a psychologist or a psychology student? or an economics student?

Well, I have. They behave the same way....they ask probing questions, analyze this and analyze that....they want to know about your childhood.

It's very stimulating intellectually, sensually.
Title: Re: Economics of dating
Post by ima1trkpny on Jan 3rd, 2010, 7:18pm

on 01/03/10 at 10:00:16, BenVitale wrote:
I'm a big fan of game theory, but I don't say that. Since I'm a math student, I just say, I study math.


LOL well that is totally unsexy :P
Title: Re: Economics of dating
Post by JiNbOtAk on Jan 4th, 2010, 3:14am

on 01/01/10 at 16:23:32, BenVitale wrote:
I wouldn't take a woman to McDo or any other food joint, or to some greasy spoon eating place on a First date.


Never ? Why, you have anything against the McDaddy ? Would you consider a greasy spoon eating joint on a first date if she requested it ?


on 12/31/09 at 12:47:03, ThudanBlunder wrote:
Yeah, I've suspected all along that McDonalds are full of transvestites.  ::)


Must be all that sesame seed they have on the buns.  ;D


on 12/31/09 at 12:34:06, ima1trkpny wrote:
Me, personally, I always offer to split ...

Why split ? Why not offer to pay for the whole date ?

On that note, did anyone here ever had any experience of the girl paying for all expenses during a first date ?
Title: Re: Economics of dating
Post by BenVitale on Jan 4th, 2010, 8:56am

on 01/04/10 at 03:14:21, JiNbOtAk wrote:
Never ? Why, you have anything against the McDaddy ?


I prefer real food .... healthy food


Quote:
Would you consider a greasy spoon eating joint on a first date if she requested it ?


If she is the one who requests it , that's different .... I'll accept it. I don't want to come across as a difficult person.



Quote:
did anyone here ever had any experience of the girl paying for all expenses during a first date ?


Yes, it happened.
Title: Re: Economics of dating
Post by BenVitale on Jan 4th, 2010, 9:02am

on 01/03/10 at 19:18:44, ima1trkpny wrote:
LOL well that is totally unsexy :P


I get that sometimes.

Actually, one of my dates said: "OMG, I hated math in high school!"

So, I shot back with the following riddle:

Love is about Chemistry.
Sex is about Physics.
What about Mathematics? Could you guess what Mathematics could do?

She said no. So, I whispered in her ear the answer to the riddle, and she laughed. The date went well.
Title: Re: Economics of dating
Post by Grimbal on Jan 4th, 2010, 12:52pm

on 01/04/10 at 09:02:19, BenVitale wrote:
What about Mathematics? Could you guess what Mathematics could do?

Knot theory?  ::)
Title: Re: Economics of dating
Post by BenVitale on Jan 4th, 2010, 1:35pm

on 01/04/10 at 12:52:17, Grimbal wrote:
Knot theory?  ::)


Yes, you're good! You can use this theory and jazz it up a bit, to make it very sexy and full of promises.

I also told her that Chemists and Physicists are very mechanical in their ways of thinking ... Mathematicians are very creative and imaginative .... that we are the bad boys in science.
Title: Re: Economics of dating
Post by ima1trkpny on Jan 4th, 2010, 10:51pm
LOL BenVitale... it was not a comment against math. In fact math can be very sexy :D but saying "I study math" is just kind of dull, that was all I meant. Now saying you wanted human lab rats... hmmmm mad scientist ;)


on 01/04/10 at 03:14:21, JiNbOtAk wrote:
Why split ? Why not offer to pay for the whole date ?

Been there done that but in my experience it encourages clingy dependency and that gets old really fast :/
Title: Re: Economics of dating
Post by BenVitale on Jan 5th, 2010, 10:53pm

on 01/04/10 at 22:51:54, ima1trkpny wrote:
.... but saying "I study math" is just kind of dull, that was all I meant.


What do you suggest I say?


Quote:
Now saying you wanted human lab rats ... hmmmm mad scientist ;)


I'm testing theories, hypotheses, preconceived ideas, and I collect data ... I also try to help some of my friends (males and females) in the dating game.

I'll come back and post a different scenario.
Title: Re: Economics of dating
Post by BenVitale on Jan 6th, 2010, 5:43pm
Here are the key concept for the next scenario:

Screening (economics) (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Screening_(economics))

The dating and flirting that goes on every day is a form of screening, where people use a large variety of cues to avoid undesirable mates.

Dating (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dating)

Flirting (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flirting)

I'm addressing the following questions to the men ... I also would like to get feedback from the women

Usually, a man does not have a problem dating a woman who's making less money.

How about if she's making more money than you do?

Have you ever dated / had a relationship with a woman whose earning power is superior to yours -- if the income level between the two of you is too wide?

Or, would you rather have a relationship with a woman of the same earning power - about the same income level?
Title: Re: Economics of dating
Post by jakelittle on Mar 18th, 2010, 11:12pm
Personally I don't care. It's the person that matter.   ;)


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