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        general >> truth >> Stephen Hawking's quotes
        
(Message started by: BenVitale on May 26^th, 2010, 10:59am)

Title: Stephen Hawking's quotes
Post by BenVitale on May 26^th, 2010, 10:59am

Stephen Hawking stated that he too believes aliens exist:

"To my mathematical brain, the numbers alone make thinking about aliens perfectly rational."

perfectly rational? Really, why?

I'm not comfortable when he said "I believe aliens exist" ... I would have liked him to say, "I believe that it's possible they do exist."

Your thoughts, please.

Title: Re: Quotes
Post by towr on May 26^th, 2010, 11:12am

If your knowledge of the universe leads you to believe it is very probable that aliens exist it is warranted to believe they exist.
There is nothing in particular that makes our solar system or planet special. So, yeah, given the numbers -- the number of stars in a galaxy, the number of galaxies in the universe, the age of the universe -- it is rational to believe in alien life. And given the physics of the universe, as we know it, it's very much improbable we will meet it. (Unless it's somewhere in our immediate neighbourhood.)

Should I believe you're an actual human being? Or do you think I should only believe it is possible you're a human being?
After all, I've never actual met you; and even if I did, I probably wouldn't have subjected you to the necessary medical test to determine whether you qualify as human, rather than some simulant.

Title: Re: Quotes
Post by Obob on May 26^th, 2010, 11:25am

I pretty much agree with everything towr said.

Besides, Stephen Hawking was sharing his opinion, so he is completely justified in saying "I believe aliens exist."

I would go a little farther than Stephen Hawking (who was likely watching his words carefully for the media) did and say that it seems absolutely ridiculous that life in some form would not exist somewhere else. The universe is really, really freaking big. And then some.

Title: Re: Quotes
Post by ThudanBlunder on May 26^th, 2010, 1:10pm

on 05/26/10 at 10:59:50, BenVitale wrote:

I'm not comfortable when he said "I believe aliens exist" ... I would have liked him to say, "I believe that it's possible they do exist."

Your thoughts, please.

Although unfortunately unable to do so, he has as much right to stick his neck out as anybody else.

Title: Re: Quotes
Post by Noke Lieu on May 26^th, 2010, 5:48pm

...ever the one with *perfect* comment...

Title: Re: Quotes
Post by ThudanBlunder on May 26^th, 2010, 6:34pm

on 05/26/10 at 17:48:07, Noke Lieu wrote:

...ever the one with *perfect* comment...

Nah, a perfect comment would go on to explain that we are already here. :P

Title: Re: Quotes
Post by Noke Lieu on May 26^th, 2010, 8:10pm

What, the perfect comment would be to mention that the perfect comments are already here?

[hideb]I was actually referring to your quip about necks[/hideb]

Title: Re: Quotes
Post by ThudanBlunder on May 26^th, 2010, 10:50pm

on 05/26/10 at 20:10:19, Noke Lieu wrote:

What, the perfect comment would be to mention that the perfect comments are already here?

[hideb]I was actually referring to your quip about necks[/hideb]

Well, I thought it was obvious I was referring to people who stick their necks out. :P

Title: Re: Quotes
Post by JiNbOtAk on May 30^th, 2010, 11:13am

I believe Hawking made that statement based on the anthropic principle; it would be too self assuming of the human race that God created this huge humongous universe just for the sake of us humans.

Although, how did we get from aliens to necks ? ::)

Title: Re: Quotes
Post by ThudanBlunder on May 30^th, 2010, 12:58pm

on 05/30/10 at 11:13:12, JiNbOtAk wrote:

... it would be too self assuming of the human race that God created this huge humongous universe just for the sake of us humans.

You mean we wouldn't have the brass neck? LOL But some of us (who, claiming to have a hotline to God, really ought to have known better) had the brass neck to believe that our er... neck of the woods was actually the centre of it - and, imitating their wrathful, vengeful God, tortured and burned any poor soul that disagreed.

Title: Re: Quotes
Post by BenVitale on Jun 3^rd, 2010, 1:29pm

"To my mathematical brain, the numbers alone make thinking about aliens perfectly rational."

Stephen Hawking is using a probabilistic argument for aliens' existence. Not an absolute proof.

Certainly, there's room for debate in probabilistic arguments.

Title: Re: Quotes
Post by ThudanBlunder on Jun 3^rd, 2010, 1:37pm

on 05/26/10 at 10:59:50, BenVitale wrote:

I'm not comfortable when he said "I believe aliens exist" ... I would have liked him to say, "I believe that it's possible they do exist."

Your thoughts, please.

Given that it is impossible to prove aliens don't exist, isn't your preference rather tautological?

Title: Re: Quotes
Post by SWF on Jun 3^rd, 2010, 9:56pm

I never understood the line of reasoning that life is highly likely to exist elsewhere because there are an extremely large number of opportunities for it. It doesn't make much sense to me because it depends on how large that number is compared to the probability of the events required for life to form. Just because it happened once does not give a measure of that probability, because it is a given that we are here.

Biologist are sure to have studied that probability, and I suspect there is a very large range of what various scientist think that number is.

Title: Re: Quotes
Post by ThudanBlunder on Jun 3^rd, 2010, 10:15pm

on 06/03/10 at 21:56:52, SWF wrote:

Biologist are sure to have studied that probability, and I suspect there is a very large range of what various scientist think that number is.

xkcd (http://xkcd.com/384/)

Title: Re: Quotes
Post by towr on Jun 4^th, 2010, 12:37am

They haven't found anything in particular that would make life an unlikely occurrence. It sprung up on earth almost as soon as the conditions allowed. Then there's the assumption that on a large scale any part of the universe is as good as any other part, so you wouldn't expect any one spot to be unique.
There's also, if memory serves me, results from complexity theory that show that in a network of a sufficiently large number of interdependent processes the probability goes to one that you get a sub-network that copies itself (basically, life). Or something like that; it's been a while since I read "What does a martian look like?" (Ian Stewart's and Jack Cohen's book on, among other things, this subject).

Title: Re: Quotes
Post by BenVitale on Sep 13^th, 2010, 12:33pm

Youtube: Hawking rules out God (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nE5KzmVL7X0)

According to the physicist, God did not create the universe and the “Big Bang” was an inevitable consequence of the laws of physics.

In “The Grand Design,” co-authored with U.S. physicist Leonard Miodinow, Hawking says a new series of theories made a creator of the universe redundant, according to the Times newspaper which published extracts on Thursday.

“Because there is a law such as gravity, the universe can and will create itself from nothing. Spontaneous creation is the reason there is something rather than nothing, why the universe exists, why we exist,” Hawking writes.

Source (http://weeklyworldnews.com/headlines/21829/stephen-hawking-god-did-not-create-the-universe/)

Title: Re: Quotes
Post by rmsgrey on Sep 14^th, 2010, 9:54am

on 09/13/10 at 12:33:48, BenVitale wrote:

Of course, what then lacks explanation is where the laws come from, or, alternatively, what enforces them...

It's like saying that there is no need to invoke William F. Lamb (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/William_F._Lamb) to explain the existence of the Empire State Building because the blueprints meant it could and would be built...

Title: Re: Quotes
Post by TenaliRaman on Sep 14^th, 2010, 11:21am

on 09/14/10 at 09:54:03, rmsgrey wrote:

Yeah, I gathered the same idea from this blog that I follow -
http://physics.about.com/b/2010/09/12/hawkinggod.htm

Something tells me that Hawking was most likely quoted out of context by the media (as usual). Though, to confirm that, I would have to purchase his book and read it myself. This is either a pretty darn good publicity stunt or random co-incidence in favor of Hawking and the numbers alone make thinking about the former perfectly rational.

-- AI

Title: Re: Quotes
Post by BenVitale on Sep 14^th, 2010, 11:24am

on 09/14/10 at 09:54:03, rmsgrey wrote:

Hawking is saying that we exist because the laws of the universe appear to have a design that is tailor-made to support us .... and cannot be changed to support us.

And why is that way?

According to Hawking, it is that way because of M-theory ... it is mysterious to me, I don't understand it.

Other people would say that God is behind all that.

I haven't studied enough physics to understand what Hawking is talking about.

Hawking talks about "Spontaneous creation" ... we have seen this movie before, and it didn't go well.

Title: Re: Quotes
Post by towr on Sep 14^th, 2010, 11:38am

on 09/14/10 at 11:24:21, BenVitale wrote:

Hawking is saying that we exist because the laws of the universe appear to have a design that is tailor-made to support us .... and cannot be changed to support us.

That's sounds more like the opposite of what he'd say.
"Tailor-made" suggests a creator; whereas the correct view is that to exist we must have developed/evolved as beings that can exist in the universe we find ourselves in. Any universe that contains life, contains life that can live in that universe, it doesn't require the universe to be tailored to that life. And if a universe doesn't contain life, there wouldn't be anyone to notice it.

Quote:

Hawking talks about "Spontaneous creation" ... we have seen this movie before, and it didn't go well.

???

Title: Re: Quotes
Post by rmsgrey on Sep 15^th, 2010, 10:00am

on 09/14/10 at 11:38:56, towr wrote:

Any universe that contains life, contains life that can live in that universe, it doesn't require the universe to be tailored to that life. And if a universe doesn't contain life, there wouldn't be anyone to notice it.

The big problem there is that the range of possible laws/universes seems to include vast numbers that preclude the possibility of anything complex enough to be recognised as life, and only a minute number that could support even our most generalised concepts of life - so either our universe is finely tuned by some agency (God, or some unknown physical principle) or it's the result of some ridiculous chance, or there's ridiculous numbers of other universes "out there" that may or may not ever be detectable...

There's a general lack of consensus on how best to resolve the problem (or even if it is a real problem at all - maybe life-as-we-don't-know-it is more versatile than we think...)

Title: Re: Stephen Hawking's quotes
Post by towr on Sep 15^th, 2010, 1:26pm

Things with ridiculously low chances do happen. The only reason they wouldn't is if they were impossible. It's not necessary for there to be an unimaginable number of more probable events (possibly in alternate universes) to compensate. Our observational base is by necessity biased, so there isn't really a good way to tell one way or the other.

Also, as far as I understand it, the "finely tuned" story is rather overrated. Nor are they entirely sure the fundamental constants are in fact constant over time and space in our universe (which we can only see some 14 billion light years of anyway). See e.g. http://www.newscientist.com/article/dn19429-laws-of-physics-may-change-across-the-universe.html

Title: Re: Stephen Hawking's quotes
Post by JiNbOtAk on Sep 18^th, 2010, 7:40pm

Did Hawking really said the laws of the universe proves that there is no God ? Funny, I remembered reading him writing it a bit differently, .."the laws of universe does not preclude a Creator, but it does put a limit on how and when he creates the universe." or something like that. I could't remember the exact phrase, I have to look it up.

Title: Re: Stephen Hawking's quotes
Post by towr on Sep 19^th, 2010, 6:31am

Yeah, that sounds more like what he'd say.

Title: Re: Stephen Hawking's quotes
Post by BenVitale on Sep 19^th, 2010, 5:03pm

He and Mr. Mlodinow don't claim to have proved that God doesn't exist; their argument is somewhat more confined, but still important in its implications.

http://physicsandphysicists.blogspot.com/2010/09/grand-design-book-review.html

Title: Re: Stephen Hawking's quotes
Post by BenVitale on Sep 19^th, 2010, 5:06pm

Towr,

Re: we have seen this movie before, and it didn't go well.

It's just an American expression, meaning, we've been thru this argument or similar argument before, namely, the "spontaneous generation"

And, I'd like to repeat the following just in case it gets overlooked

He and Mr. Mlodinow don't claim to have proved that God doesn't exist; their argument is somewhat more confined, but still important in its implications.

http://physicsandphysicists.blogspot.com/2010/09/grand-design-book-revie w.html

Title: Re: Stephen Hawking's quotes
Post by towr on Sep 29^th, 2010, 3:01am

http://imgs.xkcd.com/comics/stephen_hawking.png (http://xkcd.com/799/)

Title: Re: Stephen Hawking's quotes
Post by TenaliRaman on Sep 29^th, 2010, 1:01pm

@towr,
I was about to post that one myself after I saw it :D

As I said before, Hawking was most likely quoted out of context by the media (as usual).

-- AI

Title: Re: Stephen Hawking's quotes
Post by Mickey1 on Sep 30^th, 2010, 7:13am

Suppose

Re: Hawking - that the universe contained only two Earth like planets, Earth being one.
Where would the new number (2=1 known +1 unknown) lead us (and Hawking) in terms of aliens?

Re: God - that I could prove that I (all) God-believers were wrong in their reasoning about the existence of God . Would that change anything?

(I was at the bottom of the first page - I see now that the discussion has strayed away somewhat/M1)

Title: Re: Stephen Hawking's quotes
Post by towr on Sep 30^th, 2010, 8:33am

on 09/30/10 at 07:13:26, Mickey1 wrote:

Suppose

Re: Hawking - that the universe contained only two Earth like planets, Earth being one.
Where would the new number (2=1 known +1 unknown) lead us (and Hawking) in terms of aliens?

It would be less likely; it depends on how likely an earth-like planet is to develop life. If there are many earth-like planets, then even if this probability is low, you'd get a large expected number of aliens, but if there are just two earth-like planets than this reasoning doesn't work.
(On the other hand, considering how early on life sprung up on earth, it might be rather likely that an earth-like planet (at the right distance from its sun, with a large moon, etc) will develop life.)

Quote:

Re: God - that I could prove that I (all) God-believers were wrong in their reasoning about the existence of God . Would that change anything?

No, because you'd just be ignored (and/or attacked) by most people that don't want their beliefs to be disproven.
(And this isn't limited to people's religious beliefs either.)

Title: Re: Stephen Hawking's quotes
Post by ThudnBlunder on May 15^th, 2011, 2:27pm

http://www.guardian.co.uk/science/2011/may/15/stephen-hawking-interview-there-is-no-heaven

Title: Re: Stephen Hawking's quotes
Post by BenVitale on May 15^th, 2011, 4:49pm

Towr,
I like the pic you posted, I'll use it on my blog.

I have 2 questions:

1) What do you think of this media coverage? Does it harm physicists ?

John Lennox, a professor of Mathematics and a christian, believes that Hawking is wrong

2) How can you be a mathematician, a scientist and a believer at the same time?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Lennox

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/debate/article-1308599/Stephen-Hawking-wrong-You-explain-universe-God.html

Title: Re: Stephen Hawking's quotes
Post by towr on May 16^th, 2011, 9:02am

on 05/15/11 at 16:49:10, BenVitale wrote:

2) How can you be a mathematician, a scientist and a believer at the same time?

I don't think mathematics has much conflict with religion, they deal with different imaginary realms ;)
And not all fields of science find themselves as conflict with (literalist interpretations) of religion either. The most problematic sciences in that respect are biology, astronomy and geology (and closely related fields); because they directly conflict with religious accounts of creation.

Aside from that, people are very good at deluding themselves and at being inconsistent. ( And this isn't necessarily a bad thing, because it would be terribly stressful to be consistent. Not to mention annoying to others. )
It also "helps" simply not to think too much; I remember an anecdote that (I think) Michael Shermer wrote, about a woman who was convinced she'd been abducted by aliens, and that the aliens stole her unborn baby. Not until he asked her if she had been pregnant at that time, did she notice that inconsistency.

Title: Re: Stephen Hawking's quotes
Post by rmsgrey on May 16^th, 2011, 9:57am

Science and spirituality operate in entirely different spheres - if you want to know which restaurant in the town centre offers the best value nutrition for your money, then a scientific approach will get you your answer; if you want to know whether you should choose your restaurant based on per-dollar nutrition, or on ecological responsibility, or on how they friendly their staff is, then a scientific approach tends to flounder...

Once you've set your goals and/or priorities, a scientific approach can tell you how best to achieve them, but it's kinda bad at setting goals, except by reference to higher-level goals...

Title: Re: Stephen Hawking's quotes
Post by towr on May 16^th, 2011, 11:21am

on 05/16/11 at 09:57:28, rmsgrey wrote:

Once you've set your goals and/or priorities, a scientific approach can tell you how best to achieve them, but it's kinda bad at setting goals, except by reference to higher-level goals...

Are religion and spirituality really so different in that respect? They're also about achieving certain goals, such as eternal life after death, or living a moral life. But you still need to set those goals yourself.
And on the other side of the argument, it's not outside the bounds of science to be able to tell you what is statistically the most likely approach to live a happy life. Psychology and neuroscience have much to say on it.
So to me they both seem like a means to an end. Albeit perhaps different kinds of ends.

Title: Re: Stephen Hawking's quotes
Post by sahibagupta on Aug 1^st, 2011, 2:11am

Hi

Stephen William Hawking, CH, CBE, FRS, FRSA (born January 8, 1942). is an English theoretical physicist and cosmologist whose career spans over forty scientists years. His books and public appearances have made him an academic celebrity. He is an honorary member of the Royal Society of Arts, a lifetime member of the Pontifical Academy of Sciences, and in 2009 was awarded the Presidential Medal of Freedom, the highest civilian honor the United States.
Thanks
spam link removed

Title: Re: Stephen Hawking's quotes
Post by manita23 on Jul 20^th, 2014, 6:46am

I have noticed even people who claim everything is predestined, and that we can do nothing to change it, look before they cross the road.

Stephen Hawking's Quotes (http://pix51.com/)