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        general >> truth >> Dust off a Dumb Debate
        
(Message started by: wade32 on Apr 6^th, 2012, 7:47pm)

Title: Dust off a Dumb Debate
Post by wade32 on Apr 6^th, 2012, 7:47pm

My father in law really knows how to get under my skin...he always wants to debate this question:

If a tree fell in the forest, and nobody was around to hear it fall, would it make a sound?

I mean, c'mon!!! He is probably just aggravating me, but what are your views of this question?

-Whether or not no one is around is irrelevant, it makes noise???
**I hope someone in here thinks it doesn't! That would be hilarious!**

Title: Re: Dust off a Dumb Debate
Post by towr on Apr 7^th, 2012, 5:20am

The philosophical point is that you can't know.
If everything we (think we) know about the world is true, then it makes a noise. But we might be wrong. We might be the only 'real' person within a simulated world, with only what we directly perceive being 'realized' in the simulation, with everything else just being added in as fait accompli. (Although in that case the tree wouldn't actually have fallen either.)

Title: Re: Dust off a Dumb Debate
Post by wade32 on Apr 7^th, 2012, 5:41pm

That is a fair assumption, however, just to make it fun, what if the "simulated" world that we know only exists in our minds, & everything outside of our mind works outside of our perception, therefore making a sound only when we make that tree the objective of our simulation. So if we are not around to be inside of that particular happening, then it didn't create a noise for our simulation, therefore not disrupting our atmosphere, it didn't exist.

Title: Re: Dust off a Dumb Debate
Post by rmsgrey on Apr 9^th, 2012, 5:01am

The fact the tree falls unobserved (a given of the problem) implies the ongoing existence of an objective reality in the absence of observers.

As for the question, it depends on what you mean by "sound". If you mean the presence of compression waves with frequencies and amplitudes within certain ranges, then, yes, the tree falling creates sound. If you mean the perception of of sound in the mind of an observer, then, no, the tree falling does not create sound.

In everyday life, the two meanings are functionally equivalent - we talk about someone hearing a noise without worrying about whether we're talking about mechanical vibrations, or mental perceptions.

We also talk about people hearing a sound when they experience an auditory hallucination, and about inaudible sounds, so, in common usage, the answer to "which definition do we mean?" appears to be "whichever fits" - for the case of the poor toppled tree, it means the answer is probably "yes, it does make a sound" but it's not ridiculous to adopt the position that sound, like beauty, is in the mind of the observer.

Title: Re: Dust off a Dumb Debate
Post by Grimbal on Apr 10^th, 2012, 9:49am

If you are lost on a desert island, and you yell to attract the attention of boats passing far, far away, but nobody hears you, are you actually yelling, or just opening your mouth?

If you are speaking in a foreign country and nobody understands you, are you actually saying something or are you just producing inarticulate sounds?

Title: Re: Dust off a Dumb Debate
Post by wade32 on Apr 11^th, 2012, 9:34am

on 04/10/12 at 15:58:32, alien2 wrote:

If you're sleeping alone and you're not aware of the fact that you're snoring, are you actually snoring? (http://www.webmd.com/sleep-disorders/guide/easy-snoring-remedies)

I don't snore...I stayed up all night one night to see if I did, and I don't lol

Title: Re: Dust off a Dumb Debate
Post by Grimbal on Apr 12^th, 2012, 9:31am

And from your experience, did you ever sleep?

Title: Re: Dust off a Dumb Debate
Post by wade32 on Apr 16^th, 2012, 7:43am

Ha Ha!! Now that is the question isn't it? I need to introduce you to my father in law!

Title: Re: Dust off a Dumb Debate
Post by Three Hands on Apr 16^th, 2012, 11:12am

on 04/10/12 at 09:49:02, Grimbal wrote:

The problem with trying to use the above as analogous to the "tree fell in the forest" problem is that, unless you are entirely deaf, you are witness to your own sound-making.

Then again, how do you know that a tree has fallen in the forest, rather than just taken up a more horizontal appearance to the next observer?

Title: Re: Dust off a Dumb Debate
Post by benmartorano on Oct 19^th, 2012, 8:57pm

I always hated this one. We know that trees make noise when they fall. It always seemed kinda silly to me.

Title: Re: Dust off a Dumb Debate
Post by towr on Oct 20^th, 2012, 4:05am

on 10/19/12 at 20:57:40, benmartorano wrote:

I always hated this one. We know that trees make noise when they fall. It always seemed kinda silly to me.

Actually, you only know they make a sound when you're there to hear it (or have some measuring device to record it).

Compare it to, "does an electron have a definite position when you're not measuring it?"
Every time you measure it's position, it does seem to have a definite position; but when you don't measure it, quantum mechanics tells us it behaves like its position is spread out, so that e.g. it can interfere with itself while moving through two slits at the same time.

Title: Re: Dust off a Dumb Debate
Post by alien2 on Oct 20^th, 2012, 4:53pm

Do you like cats? (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Schr%C3%B6dinger's_cat)

Title: Re: Dust off a Dumb Debate
Post by towr on Oct 21^st, 2012, 12:49am

Nah, they're too stringy (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/String_theory).

Title: Re: Dust off a Dumb Debate
Post by Grimbal on Oct 22^nd, 2012, 7:33am

I wonder what happens if Schrödinger's cat secretly installs another quantum-effect-driven lethal device outside of the box.
The cat won't even be sure whether there will be an observer for this death or survival.