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JiNbOtAk
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Re: Survey #4  
« Reply #25 on: Oct 5th, 2007, 7:38pm »
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on Oct 5th, 2007, 6:59am, Grimbal wrote:
What particular sect / denomination of muslim?

 
Sunni, adhering to teachings of Imam Syafie.  
 
Hmm, quite a number of atheist, closet, modest or otherwise.
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Re: Survey #4  
« Reply #26 on: Oct 6th, 2007, 5:10am »
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The simple version for what I believe is Agnostic. Not really due to confusion, more that my greatest conviction is that my guess is just as good as anyone else's, even if I don't necessarily believe that they're guess is right.
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Re: Survey #4  
« Reply #27 on: Oct 6th, 2007, 8:43am »
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on Oct 6th, 2007, 5:10am, Three Hands wrote:
The simple version for what I believe is Agnostic. Not really due to confusion, more that my greatest conviction is that my guess is just as good as anyone else's, even if I don't necessarily believe that they're guess is right.

 
on Oct 5th, 2007, 2:33pm, rmsgrey wrote:
I'm semi-Christian, vaguely Anglican...

 
Guess even brothers don't necessarily share the same beliefs. How about those who are married ? Anyone with different religion than that of their significant other ?
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Re: Survey #4  
« Reply #28 on: Oct 6th, 2007, 8:50am »
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on Oct 6th, 2007, 8:43am, JiNbOtAk wrote:

 
Guess even brothers don't necessarily share the same beliefs.

 
??????????????
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Re: Survey #4  
« Reply #29 on: Oct 6th, 2007, 9:27am »
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on Oct 6th, 2007, 8:50am, hiyathere wrote:

 
??????????????

Here take a look for yourself. (Reply 54 and 59)
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Re: Survey #4  
« Reply #30 on: Oct 6th, 2007, 10:08am »
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on Oct 6th, 2007, 8:43am, JiNbOtAk wrote:

Guess even brothers don't necessarily share the same beliefs. How about those who are married ? Anyone with different religion than that of their significant other ?

Or don't describe it in the same way
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Re: Survey #4  
« Reply #31 on: Oct 6th, 2007, 11:53am »
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Born Roman Catholic. Found them to interpret some things in too pedantic a manner. Also their services tend to be too formulaic for my taste. Drifted towards non-denominational Christianity.  
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Re: Survey #4  
« Reply #32 on: Oct 6th, 2007, 12:50pm »
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I quite like Discordianism occasionally.. At least I know that's not meant to be taken seriously.
But overall my religious attitude really depends on the moment. Hence my earlier statement.
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Re: Survey #4  
« Reply #33 on: Oct 9th, 2007, 9:38pm »
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on Oct 6th, 2007, 12:50pm, towr wrote:
But overall my religious attitude really depends on the moment.

 
So, what do you guys think then ? Should we suit our belief system according to how we think it should be, or do we adjust ourselves according to our belief system ?  
 
( I believe there are other non-christians here, who for some reason chose not to disclose their faith )
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Re: Survey #4  
« Reply #34 on: Oct 9th, 2007, 11:21pm »
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on Oct 9th, 2007, 9:38pm, JiNbOtAk wrote:
Should we suit our belief system according to how we think it should be, or do we adjust ourselves according to our belief system ?
That sounds like an odd thing to say. If you believe your belief system ought to be different, then isn't it already? And if you don't adjust yourself to your belief system, do you believe it at all?
 
 
Quote:
( I believe there are other non-christians here, who for some reason chose not to disclose their faith )
(Or perhaps they see no reason why they should. And I doubt it's just non-christians)
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Re: Survey #4  
« Reply #35 on: Oct 10th, 2007, 1:49am »
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on Oct 9th, 2007, 11:21pm, towr wrote:
That sounds like an odd thing to say. If you believe your belief system ought to be different, then isn't it already? And if you don't adjust yourself to your belief system, do you believe it at all?

 
I guess it didn't come out right. What I'm trying to say is this, most of us are exposed to a certain beliefs from our early years. As we grow older, and we start to ask more questions, some of what we believe might not be valid anymore ( to us at that point of time anyway ). When it comes to that, do we try to adjust the dogma to our personal opinion, or do we search for an alternative to what we used to believe in ?
 
<This might prove to be more confusing than my previous post>
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Re: Survey #4  
« Reply #36 on: Oct 10th, 2007, 5:03am »
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on Oct 10th, 2007, 1:49am, JiNbOtAk wrote:

 
I guess it didn't come out right. What I'm trying to say is this, most of us are exposed to a certain beliefs from our early years. As we grow older, and we start to ask more questions, some of what we believe might not be valid anymore ( to us at that point of time anyway ). When it comes to that, do we try to adjust the dogma to our personal opinion, or do we search for an alternative to what we used to believe in ?
 
<This might prove to be more confusing than my previous post>

 
You know, I think I might be entering that stage now.  Tongue
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Re: Survey #4  
« Reply #37 on: Mar 9th, 2008, 2:47pm »
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I am probably atheist Wink ... I am not organised, but I hope I live according the principles whose lead to establishing religion. ... if these principles are called God ... I do not like institutions as well as the philosophy of a lot of organised ... I can do almost anything, but I must ask regularly for forgiving...
 
I live in region with roman-catolics as well as evangelists. I dont have deep "knowledge" in this, but even muslims or jewish don't seem to be so much different. (Different rituals, diferent notion of sheer meal but the same principals of shared solidarity ... yes there are big differences in emancipation ...).
 
Totaly diferent religions are in east Asia.
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Re: Survey #4  
« Reply #38 on: Mar 9th, 2008, 7:23pm »
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on Oct 5th, 2007, 6:48pm, ThudanBlunder wrote:
As for religions or their representatives actually claiming to represent God, that is presumptuous arrogance.

 
But it isn't presumptuous arrogance for you to proclaim them wrong? Or for you to decide that God doesn't care:
 
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Religions can be likened to rivers flowing into the Ocean. When a molecule of water in a river reaches the Ocean, does it really matter which river it came from? And will the Ocean care? The Ocean knows only the Ocean.
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Re: Survey #4  
« Reply #39 on: Mar 10th, 2008, 4:22am »
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Gee, things must be slack in Kansas; don't you already have a couple of nit-picking meta-arguments on the go?  
 
on Mar 9th, 2008, 7:23pm, Icarus wrote:

But it isn't presumptuous arrogance for you to proclaim them wrong?

No, as my views represent only myself. Their views are claimed to represent God. Hardly comparable.
And since I have merely expressed a point of view in a private forum, I have not 'proclaimed' anything.
 
on Mar 9th, 2008, 7:23pm, Icarus wrote:
Or for you to decide that God doesn't care:

My point seems to have been lost on you: Oneness knows only itself. (If you insist on some form of anthropocentric personification then try 'all-embracing'.)  
Again, this is merely my opinion. I have not 'decided' anything. However, if you decide to disagree, that will not be entirely unexpected.  
 
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Re: Survey #4  
« Reply #40 on: Mar 10th, 2008, 3:52pm »
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What you believe about oneness or God or whatever else you want to refer to is your business, and you are also welcome to share them, if done politely. What I take issue with is your blanket condemnation of those whose beliefs differ from yours.  
 
When you condemn others as being "presumptuous" and "arrogant" for believing something that goes against what you admit is merely your opinion, it seems to me that the presumption and arrogance lie in a different quarter.
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Re: Survey #4  
« Reply #41 on: Mar 11th, 2008, 10:41am »
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on Mar 10th, 2008, 3:52pm, Icarus wrote:
When you condemn others as being "presumptuous" and "arrogant" for believing something that goes against what you admit is merely your opinion, it seems to me that the presumption and arrogance lie in a different quarter.

This is rather rich, coming as it does from a person who sets such great store by his own opinions. Whereas I find nothing wrong with criticizing a nebulous group of leaders, the alacrity with which you often criticize individual posters amply demonstrates that, unburdened by modesty, you assume a moral authority which you simply do not possess in this forum. I suggest you confine your sanctimonious posturing to your worship of 'God or whatever else you want to' worship.
 
Below is another example of the bullying manner in which you operate, a Freudian slip bluntly disposing of an unfortunate visitor who does not measure up to your standards:
 
on Mar 31st, 2005, 6:53pm, Icarus wrote:
If there is one thing that I will not tolerate, it is someone with an overinflated sense of their own worth who tries to prop up their ego by being insulting to others. Some of your posts here and elsewhere seem to push this boundary strongly, or cross it.
 
The royal 'we'? Non, l'etat, c'est moi!
 
What you will or will not tolerate is irrelevant to the smooth functioning of this forum and should remain a private matter between you and your dominatrix.
 
Beware the Ides of March.
 
« Last Edit: Mar 16th, 2008, 6:19pm by ThudnBlunder » IP Logged

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Re: Survey #4  
« Reply #42 on: Mar 12th, 2008, 5:04pm »
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i am atheist, and everyone knows, and they dont care
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Re: Survey #4  
« Reply #43 on: Mar 21st, 2008, 4:34pm »
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It's been 10 days, and no one has responded to ThudanBlunder's attack. I have to wonder why.
 
Is it because you do not see what is wrong with his statements? I suppose the bigotry in his earlier post that I quoted was somewhat hard to see. Not because it was hidden - it is a textbook example - but because this bigotry is so common, people don't even notice it. I assumed at the time it was just an oversight, but ThudanBlunder's replies make it clear the bigotry is deep-seated.
 
If you cannot see it, a key component of bigotry is the denigration of people by group. The bigot defines a group of people, then assigns a negative character trait to the group that is neither a consequence of the group's definition, nor strongly supported by evidence as being universal. This is exactly what T&B does: his group is "religions or their representatives actually claiming to represent God". By conservative estimate, this describes the religious beliefs of at least half the world's population. If you loosen the interpretation of "God", then it raises to at least 90%. But even if you accept T&B's claim to only refer to a "nebulous group of leaders", this does not excuse the expression from being bigoted. This "nebulous group" clearly contains many people T&B has never had contact with. There are many reasons that might lead them to believe their religion represents God. Yet he denigrates them for one of his own imagining, and declares there is nothing wrong with this. That is the nature of bigotry.
 
He then, somewhat ironically, attacks me for criticizing individual posters. I certainly have done so. But my criticisms have always been about things they gave definite evidence of in these forums. I have never accused them of behaviors and attitudes I dreamed up. And contrary to his assertions, I have never criticized anyone in an effort to build myself up. Rather my criticisms have always been directed at preventing, or at least moderating, problems for the forum, most particularly flame wars. Please follow the link to T&B's supposed example of my bullying. Read the whole thread and judge for yourself whether or not the comment was justified, and whether my behavior in that thread was bullying. For an even better understanding, you should look to other posts by the pair in question at that time, as I was responding to things in more than that one thread. Compare the insults they gave to those of srn347. Fortunately, these two were not really of like mind with him, even though their initial remarks hold a similar flavor. Both are still regular posters on this forum (the godfather234 now goes by the name CowsRUs).
 
More generally, if you will look, you will see that I have not insulted or otherwise taken strenuous exception to anyone except when they had already been insulting others, or engaging in other intentionally malicious activities. Note too, that when they turned their insults on me, I let them. It was only when they chose to attack others that I took them to task. Does this sound like the behavior of a bully?
 
Is the reason you chose not to respond is that you do not believe bigotry to be a problem? I should hope that everyone would know better than this, even T&B, who instead will deny that his actions are bigotry. But just in case: it is hard to find a sordid episode in world history that did not have bigotry at its heart. Every religious conflict, every persecution, perhaps every war is the result of bigotry. Bigotry allows people to view others as inferior. And if they are inferior, then they don't deserve the same things as the bigot. Therefore the bigot feels justified in ill-using others.
 
Perhaps you do not respond because you feel it is not your fight? Or perhaps you fear to turn T&B's ill will on yourself? Such were the attitudes of many when Hitler began his persecution of the Jews and the many other ills he committed. ‘The only thing necessary for the triumph [of evil] is for good men to do nothing.’ - Edmund Burke.
 
Whatever the case for your lack of reply, I no longer care. I am tired of putting up with nonsense like this, and will visit this site no more. I'm sure this will make T&B happy. But I wish the rest of you good luck.
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Re: Survey #4  
« Reply #44 on: Mar 21st, 2008, 5:47pm »
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Just saw this today for the first time... It seems to me that T&B has denigrated individuals at some times or other which had nothing to do with the smooth operation of this board... A case in point:
 
on Sep 6th, 2007, 1:58am, ThudanBlunder wrote:

I answered my own question because my answer appeared to differ from Eigenray's.
I quoted my answer in order to give a specific example with p = 2/3, q = 1/3
 
You would have realized this if you had listened to Mummy and taken your Ritalin before posting.
 

 
on Mar 11th, 2008, 10:41am, ThudanBlunder wrote:

the alacrity with which you often criticize individual posters amply demonstrates that, unburdened by modesty, you assume a moral authority which you simply do not possess in this forum.

 
 
English is not my first language but I believe the expression goes like "People who live in glass houses should not throw stones"
 
I haven't been here long enough to see what is simmering under the surface. For what its worth, It does not seem to me that Icarus's remarks are usually made to build himself up or to impose a moral authority. Admittedly, he does challenge assumptions on a regular basis, but I feel it is usually done in a polite way (from what I have seen).  
 
His challenge of T&B opinions in this thread was perhaps too close to the line but I assumed (perhaps wrongly) that T&B and Icarus were familiar enough with each other to have these types of baits once in awhile ... not unlike buddies who try to one up the other without repercussions to their relationship. (Somewhat like Asimov and Arthur C. Clark insulting each other routinely at the Science Fiction writers conventions ... all while keeping a smile on their faces as this is done in jest).  
 
In any case, it's a shame to see Icarus leave over this .... I valued his contributions as well as T&B's.  
« Last Edit: Mar 21st, 2008, 7:59pm by denis » IP Logged
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Re: Survey #4  
« Reply #45 on: Mar 21st, 2008, 6:02pm »
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Yes, I hope Icarus does not leave too.
 
As for not responding to this thread, I usually keep away from such discussions. Not sure about the reasons other people had.
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Re: Survey #4  
« Reply #46 on: Mar 21st, 2008, 8:42pm »
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When time is limited, battles must be chosen.
 
In the past 10 days, I have spent the time devoted to forum arguments in the forum where I'm a moderator, which responsibility gives it priority.
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Re: Survey #4  
« Reply #47 on: Mar 22nd, 2008, 7:21am »
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on Mar 21st, 2008, 4:34pm, Icarus wrote:
It's been 10 days, and no one has responded to ThudanBlunder's attack. I have to wonder why.

I initially didn't feel it was my place to step into a dispute apparently between two "senior" members of this community.  You're a difficult person to reas sometimes, Icarus, and I didn't think you would welcome my defense.  For being mistaken in that judgment I sincerely apologize.  Had I seen T&B's edit of the 16th, I would have spoken up anyway as I feel it clearly crosses the bounds of normal decency usually maintained around here, but seeing as it was an edit, rather than a new post, I was unaware of it until just now.
 
T&B: Since you've been around here a while, you're no doubt familiar with my low level of tolerance for ad-hominem attacks, even before I was asked to be a moderator.  I have written elsewhere of my praise for the generally respectful and open tone of discussions around here, and I largely credit towr and Icarus for maintaining and encouraging that tone while they were the only active moderators.  Icarus may be rather sure of himself, but, for myself, I would not say I've seen him cross the line from confidence to arrogance, nor have I ever seen him attack anyone personally the way you attack him above.  Whether it's my place or not, I feel you're the one out of line there, not Icarus.
 
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Re: Survey #4  
« Reply #48 on: Mar 22nd, 2008, 7:33am »
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on Mar 21st, 2008, 4:34pm, Icarus wrote:
It's been 10 days, and no one has responded to ThudanBlunder's attack. I have to wonder why.
 
Is it because you do not see what is wrong with his statements?
His last post was a bit .. unreal. Honestly, I really didn't know what to say at it. (And it also changed over several edits)
I figured the thread would die, time passes, and people forget.
 
Quote:
Perhaps you do not respond because you feel it is not your fight? Or perhaps you fear to turn T&B's ill will on yourself? Such were the attitudes of many when Hitler began his persecution of the Jews and the many other ills he committed.
..
This is not a debate/argument/shouting-match of holocaust proportions.
 
Quote:
‘The only thing necessary for the triumph [of evil] is for good men to do nothing.’ - Edmund Burke.
When every issue is made to be one of apocaliptic proportions, it's no wonder good men don't do anything.
 
 
 
Quote:
This is exactly what T&B does: his group is "religions or their representatives actually claiming to represent God". By conservative estimate, this describes the religious beliefs of at least half the world's population.
I don't think many religious groups claim to have a phone-line connection to god and to speak his divine word directly, and few act like it. Those that do act like that, I would fully endorse calling presumptuous and arrogant, at least as long as they're part of a religion that posits God's ways are unfathomable or don't substantiate their claim in some way.
Frankly; speaking for anyone, god or not, is presumptuous, unless they gave express permission for you to do so. At best you can give your thoughts on what they might think, based on the best interpretation of past revelation (which is what most religions do, afaik). There is always room for error there; there must be, for your faults not to reflect badly on whom you 'speak for'.
Saying something like "When fags die God smiles" is an insult to God; or at least to any God that doesn't deserve insult.  
 
 
 
Quote:
Whatever the case for your lack of reply, I no longer care. I am tired of putting up with nonsense like this, and will visit this site no more. I'm sure this will make T&B happy. But I wish the rest of you good luck.
Well, you'll be missed. I suppose there's no use to try and dissuade you, since you won't be back to see it.
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Re: Survey #4  
« Reply #49 on: Mar 22nd, 2008, 8:10am »
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on Mar 21st, 2008, 4:34pm, Icarus wrote:
It's been 10 days, and no one has responded to ThudanBlunder's attack. I have to wonder why.

 
My reasons are twofold. Firstly, that I did not see the remarks until now, since I am finding less and less time to be online on a regular basis.
 
However, even had I seen the remarks, I do not believe it would be my place to step into the argument, at least not at the level it was at. From what I saw, both of you were getting at each other - perhaps a little less eloquently or subtly in ThudanBlunder's case - but I believe both of you are capable of seeing that some of the comments were getting a bit too personal and insulting, and step back from it as I have seen you both do in the past.  At the very least, merely being an occasional visitor to the site these days, I don't believe any intervention from myself would be welcome between two of the senior moderators.
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