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FiBsTeR
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 Chess Game Reconstruction   « on: Jun 2nd, 2007, 7:11pm » Quote Modify

Quote:
 A game begins with 1.e4 and ends in the fifth move with knight takes rook mate. Reconstruct the game.

Hey all,
I've been really interested in this problem for quite some time now. I was surprised that I couldn't find this problem in this forum (perhaps I didn't search well enough?

Anyway, I couldn't find a 5 move solution, but I found this 6 move solution:

 hidden: 1. e4  f6 2. Nf3 g5 3. Ne5 a6 4. Nf7 a5 5. Qh5 a4 6. Nxh8 ++

Note this is just a variation of the 2-move checkmate.

My reasoning was that if one move is for e4 and it takes the knight another four moves to reach the rook at h8, there must be some sixth move for mate. Did I perhaps misinterpret the question to mean 5 moves after e4? Does anyone know a 5 move solution?
 « Last Edit: Jun 2nd, 2007, 7:20pm by FiBsTeR » IP Logged
ThudnBlunder
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 Re: Chess Game Reconstruction   « Reply #1 on: Jun 3rd, 2007, 3:18am » Quote Modify

Quote:
 Does anyone know a 5 move solution?

Yes, I do. But I am not anyone. I am the one who sent the puzzle to William.

Actually, it is Black that mates on the 5th move.

Welcome to the forum!

 « Last Edit: Jun 5th, 2007, 4:08am by ThudnBlunder » IP Logged

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palmerim
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 Re: Chess Game Reconstruction   « Reply #2 on: Jun 11th, 2007, 10:46am » Quote Modify

The game starts 1. e4 and ends in the 5th move with a knight takes rook mate.

I have the solution!! May I show it here or it is not permited?
Palmerim
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palmerim
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 Re: Chess Game Reconstruction   « Reply #3 on: Jun 11th, 2007, 10:55am » Quote Modify

Well, as nobody answers me i will send the solution now:

1. e4 Nf6
2. f3 Nxe4
3. Qe2 Ng3
4. Qxe7+ Qxe7+
5. Kf2 Nxh1#

Palmerim
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towr
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 Re: Chess Game Reconstruction   « Reply #4 on: Jun 11th, 2007, 11:00am » Quote Modify

on Jun 11th, 2007, 10:46am, palmerim wrote:
 I have the solution!! May I show it here or it is not permited?
Yes it's ok.

And you already have now anyway
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Hippo
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 Re: Chess Game Reconstruction   « Reply #5 on: Jun 12th, 2007, 2:37pm » Quote Modify

Good job.
I have thought about it several times and the possibility to infiltrate black queen to E7 never came to my mind.
I have tried mating by taking rook elsewhere with no success.

Was it proved to be the only solution? How many 5+4moves exists where at least 3 black moves are made by the same kNight (roughly)? ... How many nodes will be searched if adding good heurisic which says 5th move will not mate by NxR mate ... how the heuristic will look like ... no, I am joking ...I  realy have no time to investigate it.
 « Last Edit: Jun 12th, 2007, 2:41pm by Hippo » IP Logged
ThudnBlunder
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 Re: Chess Game Reconstruction   « Reply #6 on: Jun 12th, 2007, 3:03pm » Quote Modify

on Jun 12th, 2007, 2:37pm, Hippo wrote:
 Was it proved to be the only solution?

Yes, that is 'provable' using a free downloadable solving program called Natch.

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Hippo
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 Re: Chess Game Reconstruction   « Reply #7 on: Jun 13th, 2007, 3:26am » Quote Modify

on Jun 12th, 2007, 3:03pm, ThudanBlunder wrote:
 Yes, that is 'provable' using a free downloadable solving program called Natch.

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SWF
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 Re: Chess Game Reconstruction   « Reply #8 on: Jun 13th, 2007, 6:35am » Quote Modify

There is a 4 year old thread for this one, but it is under the title SelfHelpMate in 5.
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Hippo
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 Re: Chess Game Reconstruction   « Reply #9 on: Jun 16th, 2007, 7:37am » Quote Modify

on Jun 12th, 2007, 3:03pm, ThudanBlunder wrote:
 Yes, that is 'provable' using a free downloadable solving program called Natch.

Now I've had a time downloading Natch (dos version) and reading the readme's and example. I dindn't find an option to say the last move is SxR mate without showing the final position. So either one should use the other distribution or there is something i've missed.

SWF: When I was scanning all threads I've skipped/missed this one (it would be interested for me) thanks for link.
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ThudnBlunder
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 Re: Chess Game Reconstruction   « Reply #10 on: Jun 17th, 2007, 3:37pm » Quote Modify

on Jun 16th, 2007, 7:37am, Hippo wrote:

Yes, you are right, Hippo. But I think it most probable that this is the only solution (ignoring transposable moves) that satisfies the stipulation.

http://www.chessbase.com/puzzle/puzz05d.htm

You might also enjoy finding a game that ends with
1) Black mating with 5.Rook to h1 (no capture)
2) White mating with 6.g7 takes f8 by promoting to a knight

 « Last Edit: Jun 18th, 2007, 6:33am by ThudnBlunder » IP Logged

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FiBsTeR
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 Re: Chess Game Reconstruction   « Reply #11 on: Jun 17th, 2007, 7:11pm » Quote Modify

on Jun 17th, 2007, 3:37pm, ThudanBlunder wrote:
 1) Black mating with 5. Rook to h1 (no capture)

It took longer than it should have, but finally:
 hidden: 1  e3  h5 2  Qxh5  Rxh5 3  Nh3  Rxh3 4  Be2  Rxh2 5  Kf1  Rxh1   It took me a while to realize that the king should block the bishop's return to f1 instead of the bishop having to make a 2nd move.

EDIT: GAHHHH!
NO CAPTURE!!! NO CAPTURE!!! NO CAPTURE!!! NO CAPTURE!!! NO CAPTURE!!! NO CAPTURE!!! NO CAPTURE!!! NO CAPTURE!!! NO CAPTURE!!! NO CAPTURE!!! NO CAPTURE!!! NO CAPTURE!!! NO CAPTURE!!! NO CAPTURE!!!

What a waste of a half hour.
 « Last Edit: Jun 17th, 2007, 7:13pm by FiBsTeR » IP Logged
Hippo
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 Re: Chess Game Reconstruction   « Reply #12 on: Jun 18th, 2007, 5:36am » Quote Modify

on Jun 17th, 2007, 3:37pm, ThudanBlunder wrote:
 http://www.chessbase.com/puzzle/puzz05d.htm

I feel much better after reading the article . Sometimes its better to resign than to try to find an answer for very difficult puzzle .
The other possibility is to program likeNatch yourself ...

I was convinced there is no solution ...
(Generaly its NPC question, but 5 moves and so many constrains ... just small constant;) )
 « Last Edit: Jun 18th, 2007, 5:38am by Hippo » IP Logged
FiBsTeR
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 Re: Chess Game Reconstruction   « Reply #13 on: Jun 18th, 2007, 7:08am » Quote Modify

Bah, I've given up on the first one, I'll come back to it.

on Jun 17th, 2007, 3:37pm, ThudanBlunder wrote:
 2) White mating with 6.g7 takes f8 by promoting to a knight

I deduced at first that since white only gets 1 other move besides the pawn moves, there should be some help from one of the officers (rook, queen, maybe bishop on h2).

Also, the only places that the king can be is d7 or e6, since h7 is too far away. e6, however, requires an extra king move, so I think I can confidently say that that is out of the question.

Then, something needs to block the king's escape to the 6th row. The first option is probably knight at c6 and pawn at d6. The other option is to have the white rook cover the whole row. Not sure which is more efficient in terms of moves yet...

Lastly, perhaps the biggest problem I've had with this, the king's return to e5 needs to be blocked as well. The most obvious that sticks out to me is the knight at g8, taking 2 moves to e8. This, however, leaves f8 open to the h8 rook...

Well, that's all I've figured out so far, maybe someone else can take all of this and find an answer.
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FiBsTeR
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 Re: Chess Game Reconstruction   « Reply #14 on: Jun 18th, 2007, 7:16am » Quote Modify

HAHAHA! I read over my post and the last line gave me the answer!

I had incorrectly said that the g8 knight should block e8, when actually the b2 knight can get there in 3 moves!

So finally:
 hidden: 1  h4  d5 2  h5  Nd7 3  h6  Nf6 4  hxg7  Kd7 5  Rh6  Ne8 6  gxf8=N ++

Now back to the first one.
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ThudnBlunder
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 Re: Chess Game Reconstruction   « Reply #15 on: Jun 18th, 2007, 9:29am » Quote Modify

That's right, FiBsTeR.

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FiBsTeR
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 Re: Chess Game Reconstruction   « Reply #16 on: Jun 18th, 2007, 12:36pm » Quote Modify

I still haven't solved the first one (rook to h1, no capture), although I found another black mate in 5 with rook to h1 in which a black pawn is promted at h1 to rook for mate. It's not radically difficult, but if someone is bored and has a chessboard in front of their computer (sounds like me on some/most days)...

I'll get it soon, though.
 « Last Edit: Jun 18th, 2007, 12:38pm by FiBsTeR » IP Logged
ThudnBlunder
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 Re: Chess Game Reconstruction   « Reply #17 on: Jul 12th, 2007, 9:21am » Quote Modify

on Jun 18th, 2007, 12:36pm, FiBsTeR wrote:
 I still haven't solved the first one (rook to h1, no capture).......I'll get it soon, though.

Zzzzzzzz.......
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FiBsTeR
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 Re: Chess Game Reconstruction   « Reply #18 on: Jul 12th, 2007, 10:57am » Quote Modify

Oops.
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ThudnBlunder
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 Re: Chess Game Reconstruction   « Reply #19 on: Jul 12th, 2007, 11:43am » Quote Modify

on Jul 12th, 2007, 10:57am, FiBsTeR wrote:
 Oops.

No problemo
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snozwuncle
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 Re: Chess Game Reconstruction   « Reply #20 on: Jan 25th, 2013, 1:52am » Quote Modify

In case anyone's interested, I found (probably the only) solution to the problem of
Black mating with 5. Rook to h1 (no capture):
1. g4     h5
2. Bg2   hxg4
3. Bxb7  Rxh2
4. Nh3   Bxb7
5. O-O   Rh1#

Cool problems!
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