Author |
Topic: Complex roots (Read 2165 times) |
|
Sameer
Uberpuzzler
Pie = pi * e
Gender: 
Posts: 1261
|
 |
Complex roots
« on: Sep 17th, 2007, 11:21pm » |
 Quote  Modify
|
Another one from my book:
Find all the roots of the equation: (x - 1)n = xn where n is a positive integer.
|
| « Last Edit: Sep 17th, 2007, 11:22pm by Sameer » |
 IP Logged |
"Obvious" is the most dangerous word in mathematics.
--Bell, Eric Temple
Proof is an idol before which the mathematician tortures himself.
Sir Arthur Eddington, quoted in Bridges to Infinity
|
|
|
Aryabhatta
Uberpuzzler
Gender:
Posts: 1321
|
|
Re: Complex roots
« Reply #1 on: Sep 18th, 2007, 1:33am » |
Quote Modify
|
Clearly x = 0 is not a root.
Divide by xn and we are done, right?
|
|
IP Logged |
|
|
|
towr
wu::riddles Moderator
Uberpuzzler
Some people are average, some are just mean.
Gender:
Posts: 13730
|
|
Re: Complex roots
« Reply #2 on: Sep 18th, 2007, 9:44am » |
Quote Modify
|
So x = 1/(1- r), where r is any of the nth roots of 1.
i.e., if memory serves me right, r= ei 2 k/n with k=0..n-1
|
| « Last Edit: Sep 18th, 2007, 9:46am by towr » |
IP Logged |
Wikipedia, Google, Mathworld, Integer sequence DB
|
|
|
pex
Uberpuzzler
Gender:
Posts: 880
|
|
Re: Complex roots
« Reply #3 on: Sep 18th, 2007, 2:02pm » |
Quote Modify
|
on Sep 18th, 2007, 9:44am, towr wrote:So x = 1/(1- r), where r is any of the nth roots of 1.
i.e., if memory serves me right, r= ei 2 k/n with k=0..n-1
|
|
Yes, except that k=0 won't work, obviously.
|
|
IP Logged |
|
|
|
Sameer
Uberpuzzler
Pie = pi * e
Gender:
Posts: 1261
|
|
Re: Complex roots
« Reply #4 on: Sep 18th, 2007, 9:46pm » |
Quote Modify
|
on Sep 18th, 2007, 1:33am, Aryabhatta wrote:Clearly x = 0 is not a root.
Divide by xn and we are done, right? |
|
Yep.
on Sep 18th, 2007, 2:02pm, pex wrote:
Yes, except that k=0 won't work, obviously. |
|
Well in this case k = 0 does work!! (I think!!!)
|
|
IP Logged |
"Obvious" is the most dangerous word in mathematics.
--Bell, Eric Temple
Proof is an idol before which the mathematician tortures himself.
Sir Arthur Eddington, quoted in Bridges to Infinity
|
|
|
Aryabhatta
Uberpuzzler
Gender:
Posts: 1321
|
|
Re: Complex roots
« Reply #5 on: Sep 18th, 2007, 11:40pm » |
Quote Modify
|
on Sep 18th, 2007, 9:46pm, Sameer wrote:
Yep.
Well in this case k = 0 does work!! (I think!!!) |
|
The original equation has exactly n-1 roots (counting multiplicity) as it is a polynomial of degree n-1.
So we have to reject one root.
|
|
IP Logged |
|
|
|
pex
Uberpuzzler
Gender:
Posts: 880
|
|
Re: Complex roots
« Reply #6 on: Sep 19th, 2007, 5:40am » |
Quote Modify
|
on Sep 18th, 2007, 11:40pm, Aryabhatta wrote:
The original equation has exactly n-1 roots (counting multiplicity) as it is a polynomial of degree n-1.
So we have to reject one root. |
|
Yes, and k = 0 leads to r = 1, leaving x = 1/(1 - r) undefined.
|
|
IP Logged |
|
|
|
Grimbal
wu::riddles Moderator
Uberpuzzler
Gender:
Posts: 7527
|
|
Re: Complex roots
« Reply #7 on: Sep 19th, 2007, 5:52am » |
Quote Modify
|
Now compute Re(x)
|
|
IP Logged |
|
|
|
pex
Uberpuzzler
Gender:
Posts: 880
|
|
Re: Complex roots
« Reply #8 on: Sep 19th, 2007, 6:12am » |
Quote Modify
|
on Sep 19th, 2007, 5:52am, Grimbal wrote:That's interesting! I get that Re(x) = 1/2 for all of the roots. Derivation:| hidden: | xk = 1 / (1 - exp(2k pi i / n))
= (1 - exp(-2k pi i / n)) / (2 - exp(2k pi i / n) - exp(-2k pi i / n))
= (1 - cos(2k pi / n) + i sin(2k pi / n)) / (2 - 2cos(2k pi / n))
= 1/2 + 1/2 i [ sin(2k pi / n) / (1 - cos(2k pi / n)) ],
and clearly, the real part is 1/2, independent of k. |
|
| « Last Edit: Sep 19th, 2007, 6:13am by pex » |
IP Logged |
|
|
|
Sameer
Uberpuzzler
Pie = pi * e
Gender:
Posts: 1261
|
|
Re: Complex roots
« Reply #9 on: Sep 19th, 2007, 9:18am » |
Quote Modify
|
Yep, I just thought infinity could be one of the roots!! Maybe not.. Yep I get the real part to be 1/2 too!! My original answer was in a reduced form 1/2(1+icotk /2) k=1..n-1 which easily showed what the real part was.
|
|
IP Logged |
"Obvious" is the most dangerous word in mathematics.
--Bell, Eric Temple
Proof is an idol before which the mathematician tortures himself.
Sir Arthur Eddington, quoted in Bridges to Infinity
|
|
|
srn437
Newbie
the dark lord rises again....
Posts: 1
|
|
Re: Complex roots
« Reply #10 on: Sep 19th, 2007, 6:38pm » |
Quote Modify
|
If n is even, x can be 1/2.
|
|
IP Logged |
|
|
|
Sameer
Uberpuzzler
Pie = pi * e
Gender:
Posts: 1261
|
|
Re: Complex roots
« Reply #11 on: Sep 19th, 2007, 6:55pm » |
Quote Modify
|
on Sep 19th, 2007, 6:38pm, srn347 wrote:| If n is even, x can be 1/2. |
|
The question asks for general solution over all n.
|
|
IP Logged |
"Obvious" is the most dangerous word in mathematics.
--Bell, Eric Temple
Proof is an idol before which the mathematician tortures himself.
Sir Arthur Eddington, quoted in Bridges to Infinity
|
|
|
srn437
Newbie
the dark lord rises again....
Posts: 1
|
|
Re: Complex roots
« Reply #12 on: Sep 23rd, 2007, 3:29pm » |
Quote Modify
|
It wuold have to be one where x=x-1, so x=infinity.
|
|
IP Logged |
|
|
|
towr
wu::riddles Moderator
Uberpuzzler
Some people are average, some are just mean.
Gender:
Posts: 13730
|
|
Re: Complex roots
« Reply #13 on: Sep 23rd, 2007, 11:16pm » |
Quote Modify
|
on Sep 23rd, 2007, 3:29pm, srn347 wrote:| It wuold have to be one where x=x-1, so x=infinity. |
|
And yet again you fail.
There are n-1 solutions that don't tend to infinity. And since infinity isn't a complex number it can't be a solution, so only those other n-1 remain.
|
|
IP Logged |
Wikipedia, Google, Mathworld, Integer sequence DB
|
|
|
srn437
Newbie
the dark lord rises again....
Posts: 1
|
|
Re: Complex roots
« Reply #14 on: Sep 24th, 2007, 6:25pm » |
Quote Modify
|
It has to be complex? Take the n root and x=x-1, therefore it must be infinity(positive or negative).
|
|
IP Logged |
|
|
|
Sameer
Uberpuzzler
Pie = pi * e
Gender:
Posts: 1261
|
|
Re: Complex roots
« Reply #15 on: Sep 24th, 2007, 8:24pm » |
Quote Modify
|
on Sep 24th, 2007, 6:25pm, srn347 wrote:| It has to be complex? Take the n root and x=x-1, therefore it must be infinity(positive or negative). |
|
ok to make it easier to understand, if you have complex set available, what are all the roots of x3 = 1?
|
|
IP Logged |
"Obvious" is the most dangerous word in mathematics.
--Bell, Eric Temple
Proof is an idol before which the mathematician tortures himself.
Sir Arthur Eddington, quoted in Bridges to Infinity
|
|
|
towr
wu::riddles Moderator
Uberpuzzler
Some people are average, some are just mean.
Gender:
Posts: 13730
|
|
Re: Complex roots
« Reply #16 on: Sep 25th, 2007, 1:26am » |
Quote Modify
|
on Sep 24th, 2007, 6:25pm, srn347 wrote:Complex numbers include the real numbers, FYI. Infinity is neither a real number, nor an imaginary number nor a combination. Hence it can't be a solution.
Quote:| Take the n root and x=x-1, therefore it must be infinity(positive or negative). |
|
Wrong. By simply taking the nth root at both sides, you lose n-1 solutions (and there are only n-1 solutions in the first place)
If e.g. x2=(x-1)2, then you don't get the solution by taking x=(x-1); so why would you think this is allowed for other n?
For x2=(x-1)2, just simplify the equation:
(x-1)2 = x2 -2x + 1, therefore x2=x2 -2x + 1, or x=1/2.
You even suggested x=1/2 yourself for even n!
|
| « Last Edit: Sep 25th, 2007, 1:26am by towr » |
IP Logged |
Wikipedia, Google, Mathworld, Integer sequence DB
|
|
|
srn437
Newbie
the dark lord rises again....
Posts: 1
|
|
Re: Complex roots
« Reply #17 on: Sep 25th, 2007, 5:07pm » |
Quote Modify
|
The roots of x3=1 are 1, -1/2 + sqrt(3)(i)/2, and -1/2 -sqrt(3)(i)/2
|
|
IP Logged |
|
|
|
Sameer
Uberpuzzler
Pie = pi * e
Gender:
Posts: 1261
|
|
Re: Complex roots
« Reply #18 on: Sep 25th, 2007, 6:12pm » |
Quote Modify
|
on Sep 25th, 2007, 5:07pm, srn347 wrote:| The roots of x3=1 are 1, -1/2 + sqrt(3)(i)/2, and -1/2 -sqrt(3)(i)/2 |
|
Good, now look at towr's example and what do you learn?
|
|
IP Logged |
"Obvious" is the most dangerous word in mathematics.
--Bell, Eric Temple
Proof is an idol before which the mathematician tortures himself.
Sir Arthur Eddington, quoted in Bridges to Infinity
|
|
|
srn437
Newbie
the dark lord rises again....
Posts: 1
|
|
Re: Complex roots
« Reply #19 on: Sep 25th, 2007, 8:04pm » |
Quote Modify
|
That there are no real solutions for all natural number exponents(which I already new).
|
|
IP Logged |
|
|
|
Obob
Senior Riddler
Gender:
Posts: 489
|
|
Re: Complex roots
« Reply #20 on: Sep 25th, 2007, 8:30pm » |
Quote Modify
|
Except whenever n is even, x=1/2 is a solution...
|
|
IP Logged |
|
|
|
Sameer
Uberpuzzler
Pie = pi * e
Gender:
Posts: 1261
|
|
Re: Complex roots
« Reply #21 on: Sep 25th, 2007, 8:44pm » |
Quote Modify
|
on Sep 25th, 2007, 8:04pm, srn347 wrote:| That there are no real solutions for all natural number exponents(which I already new). |
|
What part of the title of this problem confuses you? Are you genuinely trying to learn or just wasting my time?
|
|
IP Logged |
"Obvious" is the most dangerous word in mathematics.
--Bell, Eric Temple
Proof is an idol before which the mathematician tortures himself.
Sir Arthur Eddington, quoted in Bridges to Infinity
|
|
|
srn437
Newbie
the dark lord rises again....
Posts: 1
|
|
Re: Complex roots
« Reply #22 on: Sep 26th, 2007, 7:23pm » |
Quote Modify
|
As already stated, you need to have all the n's answered. x would have to equal n-1.
|
|
IP Logged |
|
|
|
Sameer
Uberpuzzler
Pie = pi * e
Gender:
Posts: 1261
|
|
Re: Complex roots
« Reply #23 on: Sep 26th, 2007, 9:39pm » |
Quote Modify
|
Note to Mods: Can you please delete posts that are irrelevant to this thread? You get my drift!!
|
|
IP Logged |
"Obvious" is the most dangerous word in mathematics.
--Bell, Eric Temple
Proof is an idol before which the mathematician tortures himself.
Sir Arthur Eddington, quoted in Bridges to Infinity
|
|
|
srn437
Newbie
the dark lord rises again....
Posts: 1
|
|
Re: Complex roots
« Reply #24 on: Sep 26th, 2007, 9:48pm » |
Quote Modify
|
Try asking a question with an answer!
|
|
IP Logged |
|
|
|
|
RIDDLES SITE
WRITE MATH!
Home 
Help 
Search 
Members 
Login 
Register
Reply
Notify of replies
Send Topic
Print