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Re: Presidents  
« Reply #25 on: Aug 25th, 2006, 3:05pm »
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I no this is replying to a much earlier post, but im not so sure about Bush's iteligence or talent. Personally I think that the president needs to be a figurehead as much as anything else. They need to be able to inspire  confidence and trust in people. That is what made people like Clinton (i think it was Clinton Undecided). And that is what i think George Bush is. I think that he is more of a puppet. The people who are really in power are behind the scenes. That is wat grants them that power. Bush needs to be able to simply do as they ask. That is why I believe that he gets what he wants: The people doing the thinking can do this without having a president who can be manipulated; their plans go on undisturbed. Either that or he is VERY smart and a fantastic actor. I'm not 100% sure which it is....
 
As to the actual question, I think that a president who is honest, and therefor can succumb the temptation of power, and really does want the best for the people and puts everything he has into helping them is not impossible. It is simply highly improbable to ever happen in any of our lifetimes. I also think that if such a person came along, he/she would need far more that 2 terms to be able to sort  out a majority of the problems facing America.
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Re: Presidents  
« Reply #26 on: Jun 6th, 2007, 2:25pm »
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I think that the most likely scenario is Bush is brilliant. As Icarus pointed out he gets what he wants. As to being a puppet, if he were a puppet he would have given in to the demands of others by now to appease them. One thing that irritates the hell out of me is people complaining about him who voted for him because he sticks to his guns! Now they want him to suddenly go all wishy-washy on usHuh I don't know about all of you, but when I am picking someone who is going to be in a position of leadership I want someone who will actually lead instead of being chased into things by the public. To me it is more a question of consistency than honesty. With a consistently dishonest person you know they will always lie so you can predict and act accordingly. I would personally rather have a consistently dishonest person in charge than one who was inconsistent from one moment to the next, because those are the ones who will get you in the most trouble and their actions are completely unpredictable. Whether you like him or not, think he is honest or not, Bush is extremely consistent. Some people think this is to the point of being reckless considering there is "evidence" he is wrong, but I have yet to see anything that convinces me he should completely change his course. I think he will change tactics if evidence shows something isn't working but he consistently works towards the same goal and I feel that is something to be respected and admired no matter what your opinion. That is tanacity and courage to continue and persevere at your job because you feel it is right even when everyone is trying to browbeat you, make fun of you, and humiliate you. These are the qualities that the people voted for so like it or not it is your fault as you knew going into it what kind of values and personality he has and you will just have to live with it until the next election, where if you so chose you can reevaluate what you find important in a candidate and act accordingly instead of complaining when someone is doing the job you told them to do.
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Re: Presidents  
« Reply #27 on: Jun 6th, 2007, 2:54pm »
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on Feb 26th, 2004, 11:57am, John_Gaughan wrote:
Do you think the United States will ever have an honest President?

 
Can you define honesty? Sometimes a leader has to show strength and not necessarily divulge or reveal everything. Is that indicative of lying or strong leadership? The qualities of human emotions and reactions are perceived in so many ways by everyone e.g. for one person it maybe fear and for other it may be smart choice!!!  
 
Real question is what are the qualities in a president we would all like to see!!!
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Re: Presidents  
« Reply #28 on: Jun 6th, 2007, 6:50pm »
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on Jun 6th, 2007, 2:25pm, ima1trkpny wrote:
I think that the most likely scenario is Bush is brilliant. As Icarus pointed out he gets what he wants.

 
"Brilliant" is definitely more than I would say. I still hold that evidence shows him to be much smarter than he is given credit for. But I can't say that he gets what he wants anymore. Whatever magic that he worked in 2002 abandoned him in 2006.  
 
Yet even though Congress is now hostile, his agenda does seem to still be on track - possibly even more so than before: he has been pushing for an immigration reform act like the one just passed for ages, but could not get it through the Republican Congress. And the Democrats want to withdraw from Iraq, but instead what we get is the surge, and no timetables.
 
on Jun 6th, 2007, 2:54pm, Sameer wrote:
Real question is what are the qualities in a president we would all like to see!!!

 
That's the problem, isn't it? There are no qualities that we all would like to see.
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Re: Presidents  
« Reply #29 on: Jun 27th, 2007, 4:46pm »
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I am soooooo happy i live in Canada, there havent been 50 presidents.
But we do have Primeministers.....
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Re: Presidents  
« Reply #30 on: Jun 27th, 2007, 5:09pm »
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on Jun 27th, 2007, 4:46pm, tiber13 wrote:
I am soooooo happy i live in Canada, there havent been 50 presidents.
But we do have Primeministers.....

I lived in India for 21 years and now live in US.... but whatever it is ... a US president is very important for the whole world however you may like to think as his actions are going to influence a lot in your life.
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Re: Presidents  
« Reply #31 on: Jun 28th, 2007, 6:28am »
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on Jun 27th, 2007, 5:09pm, Sameer wrote:

I lived in India for 21 years and now live in US.... but whatever it is ... a US president is very important for the whole world however you may like to think as his actions are going to influence a lot in your life.

And most of us don't get a vote...
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Re: Presidents   Bush.jpg
« Reply #32 on: Jun 28th, 2007, 11:50am »
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Roll Eyes
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Re: Presidents  
« Reply #33 on: Jun 28th, 2007, 10:11pm »
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simple solution rmsgrey... move to the U.S. then you can vote   Grin Hell... we let the illegals do that... so why not Brits?  Tongue
By the way... I love that pic you found ThudandBlunder... brilliant.
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Re: Presidents  
« Reply #34 on: Jun 29th, 2007, 8:57am »
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on Jun 28th, 2007, 10:11pm, ima1trkpny wrote:
simple solution rmsgrey... move to the U.S. then you can vote   Grin Hell... we let the illegals do that... so why not Brits?  Tongue
By the way... I love that pic you found ThudandBlunder... brilliant.

 
 
Hmmm even if you are in US, you can't vote until you have citizenship!!! The only thing I can do is interest people - who can vote - in politics and maybe give them a new viewpoint!!!
 
Anyways getting back to the point, I have noticed that people rarely trust their politicians now. They are always looked with suspicion and every action comes with a conspiracy theory. Why have we reached this stage? Is there something we can do to avoid this?
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Re: Presidents  
« Reply #35 on: Jun 29th, 2007, 10:26am »
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Sameer (I probably shouldn't be telling you/encourageing this... ) fyi, if you have a driver's license you can walk into any polling place and vote. They are supposed to place those ballots in a seperate box until citizenship is verified but lets just say things don't always go like they are supposed to. This is the reason that so many people are pissed off about illegal aliens, because some of them are voting and taking welfare (if they have citizen children) without paying taxes or having any of the accountabilities expected of a citizen. I love the U.S. but we sure do have a knack for setting up our system to allow and even encourage others to take advantage of us. “The American Republic will endure until the day Congress discovers that it can bribe the public with the public's money” (De Toqueville) pretty much sums up where a fair majority of the U.S.'s problems lie.
And getting back to the main point of politicians/presidents, I feel the quote also is appropriate to answer your question. Many of our presidential candidates are experienced politicians from Congress. Subconciously the American public is beginning to realize how much manipulation goes on in politics and how much power a politician has to manipulate the populus and it scares the hell out of them. This is completely disregarding the fact that we give them that power over us in the first place... oh what a tangled web we weave...
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Re: Presidents  
« Reply #36 on: Jun 29th, 2007, 11:49am »
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on Jun 28th, 2007, 10:11pm, ima1trkpny wrote:
simple solution rmsgrey... move to the U.S. then you can vote   Grin Hell... we let the illegals do that... so why not Brits?  Tongue

And what about the remaining 5 billion or so people whose lives are affected by US foreign policy? It seems preferable to come up with a solution that scales better...
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Re: Presidents  
« Reply #37 on: Jun 29th, 2007, 1:07pm »
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on Jun 29th, 2007, 10:26am, ima1trkpny wrote:
Sameer (I probably shouldn't be telling you/encourageing this... ) fyi, if you have a driver's license you can walk into any polling place and vote.
Haha I already know that.. but I am an honest person...  Smiley
 
The problem is the laws, the loops, the monitoring systems they come up with to curb illegal immigration affects people like me who are here legally and want to live peacefully. Do you know I have to send my address change to the immigration department within 10 days of changing my  address? Even if I move a block away. *sigh* i don't really wanna start an immigration debate here... so sorry to let my steam out  Embarassed
 
on Jun 29th, 2007, 11:49am, rmsgrey wrote:

And what about the remaining 5 billion or so people whose lives are affected by US foreign policy? It seems preferable to come up with a solution that scales better...

 
I agree with rmsgrey here.. in this age of globalization when powerful countries play with lives of the whole world, the system is not completely democratic.
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Re: Presidents  
« Reply #38 on: Jun 30th, 2007, 1:22am »
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Well Sameer you get bonus points from me for being honest, but my point was that there are a hell of a lot of dishonest people in the world who do nothing but search for ways to get around the rules. It's funny actually how much time and creative energy goes into subterfuge when just obeying in the first place would make life so much simpler and enjoyable for all.  
As for how U.S. policy affects the world... I can't really accurately address that, as while I have visited many other countries, I have never resided outside the U.S. for any extended length of time. I am sorry if things affect you negatively but to be perfectly honest I elect these officials to look out for my interests and the interests of the country not Britain's interests or who ever else may be involved. Forgive me if this seems blunt but why is everything always America's fault, etc... can't you people look out for your own interests? I have no problem with people disagreeing with me or with my country, but instead of whining about it do something. Put your money where your mouth is and stop supporting U.S. goods (yes I know this is economic suicide...) but my point being if you really want something done, have the guts to actually do something about it instead of bashing leaders or others.
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Re: Presidents  
« Reply #39 on: Jun 30th, 2007, 5:43pm »
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on Jun 30th, 2007, 1:22am, ima1trkpny wrote:
Well Sameer you get bonus points from me for being honest, but my point was that there are a hell of a lot of dishonest people in the world who do nothing but search for ways to get around the rules. It's funny actually how much time and creative energy goes into subterfuge when just obeying in the first place would make life so much simpler and enjoyable for all.  
As for how U.S. policy affects the world... I can't really accurately address that, as while I have visited many other countries, I have never resided outside the U.S. for any extended length of time. I am sorry if things affect you negatively but to be perfectly honest I elect these officials to look out for my interests and the interests of the country not Britain's interests or who ever else may be involved. Forgive me if this seems blunt but why is everything always America's fault, etc... can't you people look out for your own interests? I have no problem with people disagreeing with me or with my country, but instead of whining about it do something. Put your money where your mouth is and stop supporting U.S. goods (yes I know this is economic suicide...) but my point being if you really want something done, have the guts to actually do something about it instead of bashing leaders or others.

For example, in the invasion of Iraq, Australia sent troops despite public opinion polling 90%+ against the war (I was there at the time, and it was a pretty unpopular move by the Aussie government)
 
Granted, the Aussie government could have refused to send troops into Iraq, but they decided to try and keep the US happy...
 
Truthfully, I don't follow politics closely enough to know chapter and verse on US influence on global events, so I may be wildly misinformed. On the other hand, what I have heard has reinforced my beliefs about the US being the 800lb gorilla in world affairs.
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Re: Presidents  
« Reply #40 on: Jul 1st, 2007, 7:10am »
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on Jun 30th, 2007, 1:22am, ima1trkpny wrote:
Forgive me if this seems blunt but why is everything always America's fault, etc... can't you people look out for your own interests?
It's hard for countries to stand up against a superpower, especially when there's only one.
Which also means that if any standing up against anything has to be done, people will look to the US to do it; and if they don't, blame them. Even in so far the US isn't responsible for the situation. (Considering all the puppet-regimes of latin america have long since gone, and most other cold-war indescretions are far in the past as well, there aren't many things I could squarely pin on the US.)
 
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Put your money where your mouth is and stop supporting U.S. goods (yes I know this is economic suicide...)
Hence, not an option.
Whining however, is an option. And perhaps eventually it'll wear the US down. It's a valid political strategy as much as invading another country or destroying it's economy through sanctions.
If america doesn't like the whining about it in the (rest of the) world, they could try to do something about it. Just as the world could try to do something about what they're whining about. That argument goes both ways.
 
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but my point being if you really want something done, have the guts to actually do something about it instead of bashing leaders or others.
There isn't realisticly much to do unfortunately. Nothing short of one form or other of suicide. Be it economic, political, explosive or other.
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Re: Presidents  
« Reply #41 on: Jul 1st, 2007, 2:02pm »
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Ok, let me phrase that better... If you have a problem with the U.S., yet you continue to take advantage of all the perks the U.S. has to offer you are a total hypocrite. Don't like what we are doing somewhere, support the other side! My point being stop being passive resistors, if you have an ethical problem with something do something about it as whining implies to me that you like to bitch about it but don't actually care enough to put themselves on the line for it. This doesn't have to be the government's "position" on the issue, if you want something done about it do it yourself. If enough individuals start doing something about it you will eventually get what you want... whining just pisses people off.
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Re: Presidents  
« Reply #42 on: Jul 1st, 2007, 2:39pm »
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on Jul 1st, 2007, 2:02pm, ima1trkpny wrote:
Ok, let me phrase that better... If you have a problem with the U.S., yet you continue to take advantage of all the perks the U.S. has to offer you are a total hypocrite. Don't like what we are doing somewhere, support the other side! My point being stop being passive resistors, if you have an ethical problem with something do something about it as whining implies to me that you like to bitch about it but don't actually care enough to put themselves on the line for it. This doesn't have to be the government's "position" on the issue, if you want something done about it do it yourself. If enough individuals start doing something about it you will eventually get what you want... whining just pisses people off.

 
 
Didn't you hear what Bush said - "Either you are with us or against us" ...  
 
We all want to live our lives peacefully, happily and least of all getting dictated by bullying governments that we didn't elect.
 
When you think about it, when US goes about preaching democracy to the rest of the world, does it actions seem democratic to you? Its a new imperial world order or monarchy if you wish...
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Re: Presidents  
« Reply #43 on: Jul 1st, 2007, 2:45pm »
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Yes, I did hear that speech. I can't speak for those opposed to Bush as I fully support him but I have been in other situations with various other leaders in whose methods or ethics I was dubious of but I didn't whine, I did something about it. It is a government for, by and of the people. You have every right to voice your opinion but be prepared to back it up is all I am saying.
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Re: Presidents  
« Reply #44 on: Jul 1st, 2007, 3:51pm »
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on Jul 1st, 2007, 2:39pm, Sameer wrote:

Didn't you hear what Bush said - "Either you are with us or against us" ...

Of the Iraqi insurgents, in 2003 this draft-dodging president also said "Bring 'em on!"
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Re: Presidents  
« Reply #45 on: Jul 1st, 2007, 4:13pm »
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Oh yes... dodges draft by enlisting in the armed forces... sure... that makes soooo much sense to me...  Roll Eyes at least he wasn't like Muhammad Ali... a professional fighter who claimed he didn't believe in violence...
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Re: Presidents  
« Reply #46 on: Jul 1st, 2007, 5:02pm »
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on Jul 1st, 2007, 4:13pm, ima1trkpny wrote:
Oh yes... dodges draft by enlisting in the armed forces...

Draft dodging by enlisting in a military unit which had been granted exemption from call-up for Vietnam, the National Guard.
 
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on Jul 1st, 2007, 4:13pm, ima1trkpny wrote:
...at least he wasn't like Muhammad Ali... a professional fighter who claimed he didn't believe in violence...

I agree. Unlike Ali, Bush wouldn't have had the brain cells to appreciate the significant difference between killing somebody and boxing them around the ears.  
 
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Re: Presidents  
« Reply #47 on: Jul 1st, 2007, 5:23pm »
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Except you forget one thing... people do get killed in boxing and permanently destroyed, to which Ali himself attests as he has been hit so hard so many times he is only a vegatable now (and being the brillian boxer that he was hit a lot of people very hard himself)... I would rather be shot myself... much quicker and less painful. There have been cases where boxers were hit so hard their brain litterally came loose and the hemmoraging caused by their brain rattling around in their skull like a boulder killed them (and it's a rather painful death).  
I have already read just about everything on him from both sides (including the wikipedia article) as I prefer to make an informed decision. He still did military service and I don't really care where as protecting our own soil is just as important to me as winning in foreign engagements. I myself have many WWII vets in my family, several members in the Coast Guard currently, and I highly considered going into the Navy myself.
Bush is far more intelligent than you give him credit for... even with a congressional majority of the opposite party he still manages to be most effective in proceeding to do what he wants. I elected a President to lead the posse not be chased by it or the fluctuating poll numbers typical of America. Maybe if Clinton had had the balls to pay more attention to what was going on and finishing out Bush 41's engagement in Iraq instead of messing around with Monica, we wouldn't have had to in again (i.e. fewer casualties and Bush 43 would not be forced to deal with all this). You must also remember that being President is a very difficult and stressful job the extent of which cannot be realized without having actually done it. You get the benefit of Monday morning quarterbacking but the President's job is to make the best decision he can in the interests of his people with the information he has at the time.
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Re: Presidents  
« Reply #48 on: Jul 2nd, 2007, 2:07am »
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on Jul 1st, 2007, 2:02pm, ima1trkpny wrote:
Ok, let me phrase that better... If you have a problem with the U.S., yet you continue to take advantage of all the perks the U.S. has to offer you are a total hypocrite.
So, say, if you have a problem with the fruits at a supermarket, you're a hypocrit if you buy anythign else there too? I don't see how that follows.  
Just because you don't turn a blind eye to the faults of the US doesn't mean you should boycit it's benefits as well. Only in so far as the advantages it offers are a direct result from the ills you perceive should you avoid them.  
 
Quote:
Don't like what we are doing somewhere, support the other side!
What other side? What alternative is there?
The only option there is, is to try and change the side we're on. And the only power there is to do that is complain; which is what humanity has done best since the dawn of time.
 
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My point being stop being passive resistors
Hey, it worked for Ghandi.
 
Quote:
if you have an ethical problem with something do something about it as whining implies to me that you like to bitch about it but don't actually care enough to put themselves on the line for it.
What viable alternative to words is there?  
Blowing things up doesn't work, and doesn't particularly improve the world either.
 
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whining just pisses people off.
Good.
 
How do you feel about whining about whining?
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Re: Presidents  
« Reply #49 on: Jul 2nd, 2007, 5:17pm »
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http://www.nytimes.com/aponline/washington/AP-CIA-Leak-Trial.html?_r=1&a mp;hp&oref=slogin
 
Is this short of any totalitarian regime whose leader does what he wants to do anyways!!! Oh wait "I can't recall" when I pardoned him!!  Roll Eyes
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