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Cannabis  
« on: Aug 25th, 2006, 1:05am »
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Hey guys, i wasn't exactly sure where to put this thread and this is the closest thing i could find.
 
Anyway, I wanted to get people's views on the subject of cannabis (i was discusing this a few nights ago with some of my mates). Should it be made legal (or if it is legal in certain countries, illegal)? Is it really harmful? I just want to get a discusion going so please post any thoughts you have on the subject.
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Re: Cannabis  
« Reply #1 on: Aug 25th, 2006, 2:52am »
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Well, my position is that putting a burning piece of anything in your mouth and sucking it can't be any good in general.
However, whether people should be allowed to do it or not, that really depends on whether it harms others. As long as that's not the case, people can do as they wish for all I care .
 
One of the upsides of legalizing it is that you can decriminalize it. It gives organized crime one less thing they can make a buck with. You can regulate it, and tax it. (And you can use the tax-revenue to combat possible problems like (psychological) addiction).
« Last Edit: Aug 25th, 2006, 2:53am by towr » IP Logged

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Re: Cannabis  
« Reply #2 on: Aug 25th, 2006, 3:36pm »
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Although for some people it is a great way to relax, smoking dope can cause the following side-effects:  
 
1) Poor short-term memory
2) Poor concentration
3) Lethargy
4) Apathy
5) Reduced motor co-ordination, e.g. when driving a car
6) Poor short-term memory
 
« Last Edit: Aug 26th, 2006, 8:36am by ThudnBlunder » IP Logged

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Re: Cannabis  
« Reply #3 on: Aug 25th, 2006, 7:50pm »
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The problem with these questions is that people invariably box their focus in ways that support their own position. here are some things to consider to get a wider view.
 
  • Everything a person does effects those around him, and the entire society he lives in. Do you drink? At the very least, this encourages others around you to do so in excess, which contributes to a long list of ills everyone should be familiar with. Do you overeat? (Embarassed)  Then your increased medical costs drive up insurance rates or taxes for everyone. Do you drive? Then you put the lives of everyone around at some risk, should you lose control of your vehicle - even for unavoidable reasons.
  • As the last example should make abundantly clear, avoiding all activities that "harm" others in some way is impossible. Indeed, requiring people to do so would harm them! Tongue
  • So we have to strike a balance between allowing everything - which results in great harm to everyone, and allowing nothing, which destroys life. We aim to minimize the total harm. But this is the problem: Harm is not quantifiable, so there is disagreement about where the minimum is.

 
Legalizing marijuana would not have any major impact on organized crime, as it is mostly too low-dollar for them. They get better money with other drugs. Marijuana is mostly produced and distributed by smalltimers. Those who don't "go straight" with legalization will simply switch to other more harmful drugs, such as meth.
 
Usage, on the other hand, could sky-rocket. And just like alcohol, this will result in a whole host of social problems: destroyed families, abuse, vagrancy and hopelessness - which lead to increased crime.
 
So the question is, is the social cost of suppressing it greater or less than the social cost of legalizing it? Looking at one side or the other alone and it seems clear what we ought to do. But look at both carefully, and it never is.
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Re: Cannabis  
« Reply #4 on: Aug 25th, 2006, 8:16pm »
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Icarus, the possession of (small amounts of) cannabis has been decriminalized in the UK. Yet usage has not sky-rocketed. Social problems have not mushroomed. The same applies to Holland, where possesion is legal if for personal use.
« Last Edit: Aug 26th, 2006, 3:37pm by ThudnBlunder » IP Logged

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Re: Cannabis  
« Reply #5 on: Aug 26th, 2006, 3:34pm »
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One of the problems we still have in the netherlands is illegal weed plantations. Only the sale and use has been legalized (or rather, is condoned), which is rather inconsistent.  
Often they tap power illegally. And being illegal, they don't pay any mind to regulations, so many are fire hazards, etc. Further they tend to ruin the building they're in. Leaving the owner its rented from with the damage (and possibly culpibility as the plantation owner may be hard to find, and someone has to be held responsible).
All in all, it's hard to understand why they haven't just pulled this part out of illegality as well. It would make it possible to regulate it and end those problems.
 
Quote:
Those who don't "go straight" with legalization will simply switch to other more harmful drugs, such as meth.
I somehow doubt that. It takes a lot more effort to do synthetic drugs, it's certainly not 'watching the grass grow'. And hard drugs is a whole different ball game.
 
Quote:
Usage, on the other hand, could sky-rocket. And just like alcohol, this will result in a whole host of social problems: destroyed families, abuse, vagrancy and hopelessness - which lead to increased crime.
I think alcohol is a much bigger problem in this respect than cannabis. Cannabis rarely if ever makes someone abusive and violent when using it, for example. Either usage is terribly low (despite being legal here), or cannabis usage is just not as disruptive as alcoholism; because I'd have expected to have heard more of it if it was.
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Re: Cannabis  
« Reply #6 on: Aug 27th, 2006, 1:33pm »
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on Aug 26th, 2006, 3:34pm, towr wrote:
I somehow doubt that. It takes a lot more effort to do synthetic drugs, it's certainly not 'watching the grass grow'. And hard drugs is a whole different ball game.

 
Obviously the Netherlands has far different drug activity than we do on the Great Plains. Small-time meth labs are a cottage industry here. Not a week goes by without one or two being raided just in my area. And things were much worse before they moved Sudafed behind the counter (we used to be able to buy it off the shelves just like aspirin, but most plains states now require you to go the prescription counter, present ID, and have your purchase recorded).  
 
As for canabis, Kansas is known as the breadbasket of the world since more wheat is grown here than anywhere else. Yet wheat is actually only our second biggest cash crop...
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Re: Cannabis  
« Reply #7 on: Sep 14th, 2006, 9:07am »
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In my opinion, the biggest problem with legalizing marijuana is that it is not a regulated substance.  That is, there is no commission (or something similar) watching the way marijuana is produced and sold, as there is for alcohol and tobacco.
 
Yes, marijuana has side-effects.  For example:
on Aug 25th, 2006, 3:36pm, THUDandBLUNDER wrote:
Although for some people it is a great way to relax, smoking dope can cause the following side-effects:  
 
1) Poor short-term memory
2) Poor concentration
3) Lethargy
4) Apathy
5) Reduced motor co-ordination, e.g. when driving a car
6) Poor short-term memory
 

 
However, alcohol can do each of these just as well.  Except, according to the most recent, and largest ever, study on THC, alcohol has one point on its list of possible side-effects that marijuana does not, death.  The problem with marijuana is that very few people actually smoke only marijuana when they smoke pot.  Any pot you get from a dealer has likely been laced with some other drug.  On the east coast, it's usually either heroin, cocaine, or PCP.  If there were an authority checking on whether people are getting actual marijuana or a mix of different drugs, the idea of legalizing it would become a little more reasonable.
 
With that said, et me say this; drinking alcohol and smoking pot were long thought to produce the same neurological effect in your body as they both seemed to regulate the amount of dopamine your neurons received.  In the 80's, this may have been true, as the majority of marijuana was laced with either heroin or cocaine, which are both entirely dependent on dopamine for their neuro-chemical reactions.  However, present-day studies are finding that marijuana may be affecting the brain through what some call "cannabinoid" neural transmitters.  The effect on the brain is therefore very different from the effect of drugs which either inhibit or excel the production and absorption of dopamine in the brain.
 
Not only is the effect different, but the path through which the effect is achieved is quite different as well.  Because, in my opinion, alcohol is the substance most comparable to marijuana (as opposed to mushrooms or heroin and other opiates), that's what I, and most everyone else, compare it to most often.  Alcohol's main delivery system is our digestive system, and that is where it takes its toll, especially on the liver.  Marijuana is inhaled, so just like cigarettes, it can hurt our lungs.  Unlike alcohol, which must be ingested in pretty much the same way, there are alternative ways to use marijuana.  The pipe, bong, joint, and blunt all work by the same principle.  The user burns some kind of paper in order to vaporize the THC in the cannabis plant.  When they breathe in, they get not only the vaporized THC, but also some smoke and other particles that will eventually gunk up their lungs.
 
However, there is an alternative: the vaporizer.  It's not that thing your parents put in your room when you were sick as a kid.  It's basically just a super-heated peice of tubing that vaporizes THC without creating smoke, as there is no packing or wrapping material involved.  It's actually healthier for you than smoking a cigarette.  When I think about that, I know it won't be long until marijana is legalized.
 
At the end of this, I fell I should add a disclaimer saying that I am not, in fact, a pot-smoker and I am not saying this to defend a habit.  I do have a lot of friends who are, though, and what I've learned, I've heard through them and then researched.
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Re: Cannabis  
« Reply #8 on: Sep 14th, 2006, 10:13am »
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on Sep 14th, 2006, 9:07am, Whiskey Tango Foxtrot wrote:
In my opinion, the biggest problem with legalizing marijuana is that it is not a regulated substance.  That is, there is no commission (or something similar) watching the way marijuana is produced and sold, as there is for alcohol and tobacco.
Well, no, it's illegal. You can't very well regulate things that are illegal. (It's like saying, "well, you're not allowed to murder someone, but if you're gonna do it anyway, let me check the knife is clean first")
However legalizing it could (and should) involve regulating it.
 
Quote:
Unlike alcohol, which must be ingested in pretty much the same way, there are alternative ways to use marijuana.
Aside from the ones you mention (which all involve inhaling) You can also use it in cooking. Space cake and hash brownies are well known examples.
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Re: Cannabis  
« Reply #9 on: Sep 14th, 2006, 11:33am »
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on Sep 14th, 2006, 10:13am, towr wrote:

Well, no, it's illegal. You can't very well regulate things that are illegal. (It's like saying, "well, you're not allowed to murder someone, but if you're gonna do it anyway, let me check the knife is clean first")
However legalizing it could (and should) involve regulating it.

 
Yes, I should have stated that this was the problem with legalizing "as is," but I see you've understood what I meant.
 
Quote:
Aside from the ones you mention (which all involve inhaling) You can also use it in cooking. Space cake and hash brownies are well known examples.

 
Excellent point.  I totally forgot (and not because of any non-regulated substance). Tongue  However, many people claim that eating enough hash brownies to get them high also maks them feel quite sick, and makes for a much less enjoyable experience which they would definitely not want to be their normal method of getting high.  I do not disagree with you, though.
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Re: Cannabis  
« Reply #10 on: Sep 15th, 2006, 12:25am »
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on Sep 14th, 2006, 11:33am, Whiskey Tango Foxtrot wrote:
However, many people claim that eating enough hash brownies to get them high also maks them feel quite sick
I think if that's the case they're just impatient. It takes longer for the THC to get into the bloodstream if you ingest it, rather than inhaling it. The effect last longer too, I think, due to the slower release.  
And of course, it also depends on how much you put in the brownies/cake in the first place. If you only put the equivalent of a joint in a batch of brownies, well yeah, you'd have to eat them all.  Tongue
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Re: Cannabis  
« Reply #11 on: Nov 30th, 2006, 4:25pm »
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on Sep 14th, 2006, 9:07am, Whiskey Tango Foxtrot wrote:

Yes, marijuana has side-effects.

Actually, my post was intended to be humorous.
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Re: Cannabis  
« Reply #12 on: Nov 30th, 2006, 6:38pm »
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Oh.   Embarassed
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Re: Cannabis  
« Reply #13 on: Nov 30th, 2006, 6:46pm »
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on Nov 30th, 2006, 6:38pm, Whiskey Tango Foxtrot wrote:
Oh.   Embarassed

...while being true all the same.   Smiley
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Re: Cannabis  
« Reply #14 on: Feb 20th, 2008, 9:53am »
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I think the dutch have a good policy on marijuana, and that it is a soft drug. While taking a strong stance on harder drugs like cocaine, heroin and others. More countries should look to it as a baseline for their own policies, hardly anyone is in a drug rehab program for marijuana. And even withdrawal symptoms are almost none compared to vomiting sickness and other serious problems when coming off heroin for example.
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Re: Cannabis  
« Reply #15 on: Feb 20th, 2008, 12:58pm »
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on Aug 25th, 2006, 1:05am, Death wrote:
Anyway, I wanted to get people's views on the subject of cannabis...

 
Danger: may promote enhanced analytical and problem solving skills.
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Re: Cannabis  
« Reply #16 on: Apr 21st, 2008, 9:32am »
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Cannabis was once legal in the States a long time ago matter of fact it was sort of illegal not to grow cannabis. Go ahead do your research it's very true.
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Re: Cannabis  
« Reply #17 on: Apr 21st, 2008, 11:06am »
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It's not surprising that it was legal; because they wouldn't have banned it the minute they stepped on shore; and everything that isn't forbidden is legal.
And of course all manner of drugs, including opium, where legal until into the twentieth century, I think.
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Re: Cannabis  
« Reply #18 on: Apr 22nd, 2008, 3:12am »
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on Feb 20th, 2008, 12:58pm, Michael_Dagg wrote:
Danger: may promote enhanced analytical and problem solving skills.

Especially in lateral thinking problems and outside of the box solutions.  Wink
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Re: Cannabis  
« Reply #19 on: Feb 18th, 2009, 12:50pm »
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Marijuana use may not be as bad as some other drugs, but from personal experience a Marijuana can become a barrier to thought. Until one completes a drug rehab program, a person's potential is not known.
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Re: Cannabis  
« Reply #20 on: Feb 18th, 2009, 1:03pm »
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on Feb 18th, 2009, 12:50pm, treznorx wrote:
Marijuana use may not be as bad as some other drugs, but from personal experience a Marijuana can become a barrier to thought. Until one completes a drug rehab program, a person's potential is not known.
A lot of things can be a barrier to thought. And even most drug-free people don't know their potential. Of course I can see where you're coming from; it's hard to miss the advertising. But frankly I'd be more worried about illiteracy, lack of education in general, and the lack of opportunity for people not born into it. And not just here, but especially around the rest of the world.  
If someone wants to smoke a joint occasionally, that doesn't detract from their potential. It's only when it takes over their lives that it becomes problem. The same goes for, well, pretty much everything; but one can name alcohol in particular, and food, gambling, and I suppose, the internet. Well, it's an endless list.  
As the saying goes, "All things in moderation".
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Re: Cannabis  
« Reply #21 on: Feb 19th, 2009, 4:50am »
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on Feb 18th, 2009, 1:03pm, towr wrote:

As the saying goes, "All things in moderation".

Does that include moderation? Wink
 
In the last 12 months the UK government has at tax-payers expense commissioned two reviews of drugs policy (one of cannabis, one of ecstasy) by independent experts. They recommended that cannabis should not be upgraded from Class C and that ecstasy should be downgraded from Class A to Class B. The government ignored both conclusions. Why bother in the first place if you intend to ignore any advice you happen to disagree with?
 
Here is Ali G (an alter ego and predecessor of Borat) interviewing a Home Office drugs expert. LOL
 
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Re: Cannabis  
« Reply #22 on: Feb 20th, 2009, 11:44am »
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on Feb 20th, 2008, 9:53am, emtjason wrote:
I think the dutch have a good policy on marijuana, and that it is a soft drug. While taking a strong stance on harder drugs like cocaine, heroin and others. More countries should look to it as a baseline for their own policies, hardly anyone is in a drug rehab program for marijuana. And even withdrawal symptoms are almost none compared to vomiting sickness and other serious problems when coming off heroin for example.

 
I couldn't agree more! Pot has low addictive potential, minor side effects and millions of functional users. More more proof do people need to realize that it is nothing to be afraid of?
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Re: Cannabis  
« Reply #23 on: Apr 26th, 2010, 12:08am »
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on Aug 25th, 2006, 8:16pm, THUDandBLUNDER wrote:
Icarus, the possession of (small amounts of) cannabis has been decriminalized in the UK. Yet usage has not sky-rocketed. Social problems have not mushroomed. The same applies to Holland, where possesion is legal if for personal use.

 
It has now been criminalised again. The "problem" with cannabis nowadays is the sheer strength of it, with all the scientific advances and cross breeding etc having seen first hand the long term and damaging effects it can have on users, I would'nt be in a rush to legalise it.
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Re: Cannabis  
« Reply #24 on: Apr 26th, 2010, 1:38am »
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on Apr 26th, 2010, 12:08am, republik wrote:
It has now been criminalised again. The "problem" with cannabis nowadays is the sheer strength of it, with all the scientific advances and cross breeding etc having seen first hand the long term and damaging effects it can have on users, I would'nt be in a rush to legalise it.
Since legalization/criminalization has little to no effect on how many people use it and to what extent, that's really not an argument; not even if I believed there was much science to back it up (as far as I know, science still hasn't found definite long term effects, damaging or otherwise).
Since usage doesn't change, it makes sense to legalize it, if only to get it out of criminal hands and regulate it.
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