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username101
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If jesus died for all are sins because we are sinners pretty much when we are born wouldnt he a be a sinner and wouldnt that also mean that all people get into heaven now like murders, petifilers, ect..
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mikedagr8
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Re: Jesus
« Reply #1 on: Aug 26th, 2007, 1:56am » |
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on Aug 26th, 2007, 1:42am, username101 wrote:| If jesus died for all are sins because we are sinners pretty much when we are born wouldnt he a be a sinner and wouldnt that also mean that all people get into heaven now like murders, petifilers, ect.. |
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Pardon?
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username101
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Re: Jesus
« Reply #2 on: Aug 26th, 2007, 2:03am » |
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lol
if jesus died for our sins so we could all go to even doesnt that mean that murders, petifilers and all the people that should burn for a eternity in hell can go to heaven 2
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mikedagr8
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Re: Jesus
« Reply #3 on: Aug 26th, 2007, 2:11am » |
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Well, according to you he died for our sins, if we don't commit them, then he's just dying in vain now isn't he?
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rmsgrey
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Re: Jesus
« Reply #4 on: Aug 26th, 2007, 9:04am » |
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on Aug 26th, 2007, 1:42am, username101 wrote:| If jesus died for all are sins because we are sinners pretty much when we are born wouldnt he a be a sinner and wouldnt that also mean that all people get into heaven now like murders, petifilers, ect.. |
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1) He got a pass on the original sin so he wasn't a sinner after all.
2) It means that anyone can get into heaven, even murderers, paedophiles, and abusive hypnodommes (don't ask) but only if we accept his offer. If we got what we truly deserved, everyone would go to hell - complaining about the idea of "really nasty people" being let into heaven is like meeting someone handing out $100 bills on the street and complaining that he's offered one to the homeless guy on the corner as well as to you...
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mikedagr8
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Re: Jesus
« Reply #5 on: Aug 26th, 2007, 2:30pm » |
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Quote:| being let into heaven is like meeting someone handing out $100 bills on the street and complaining that he's offered one to the homeless guy on the corner as well as to you... |
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I'd complain, why did he only give me one? 
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towr
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Re: Jesus
« Reply #6 on: Aug 26th, 2007, 2:52pm » |
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on Aug 26th, 2007, 9:04am, rmsgrey wrote:| complaining about the idea of "really nasty people" being let into heaven is like meeting someone handing out $100 bills on the street and complaining that he's offered one to the homeless guy on the corner as well as to you... |
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Perhaps if that someone was also asking everyone to get in a line to receive their $100 bill, and then everyone that disregards directions completely gets their money before you.
You get nothing for following the rules. Yay!
Rampage now, ask forgiveness later.
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mikedagr8
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Re: Jesus
« Reply #7 on: Aug 26th, 2007, 8:00pm » |
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Good call.
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SMQ
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Re: Jesus
« Reply #8 on: Aug 27th, 2007, 6:34am » |
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on Aug 26th, 2007, 2:52pm, towr wrote:| Rampage now, ask forgiveness later. |
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Two points: first, while I hesitate to even speculate on whom God1 will or will not choose to extend His offer of salvation to, it seems likely to me that forgiveness will only be given to those whose contrition is sincere.2 If one consciously chooses to rampage now with the intention of asking forgiveness later, won't it be that much harder -- and more unlikely -- to be honestly sorry for the damage caused?
Second, while God claims many attributes for Himself in the Bible, nowhere does He claim to be "fair." "Just," yes, but not "fair." In fact, His recorded actions/decisions -- see, for example, pretty much the entire book of Job -- are at times distinctly unfair by any reasonable definition.
1Disclaimer: I'm a Christian and write from that perspective. Insert "assuming God exists and the Christian interpretation of the Bible is essentially correct" as appropriate.
2Further disclaimer: I'm writing only for myself here and make no claim that my views represent any particular doctrinal orthodoxy, etc.
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Sameer
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Re: Jesus
« Reply #9 on: Aug 27th, 2007, 7:09pm » |
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Frankly I believe it's just an instrument of control concocted by few people during the restless ages continued to the present era.. I thought I would stay out of this conversation.. It always kind of annoys me that someone comes up to me (they did a lot during my college time) and claim that I am a sinner and that if I became Christian I would go to heaven. Come on, he was implying that even though however good I am in my life I would be a "sinner" if i wasn't embracing Christianity. I always politely told him to leave or say I don't believe in "heaven" or such, I still think this is very intrusive.
Disclaimer: I don't believe in following any particular religion and don't claim to be part of any. I take good from everything and try to make it my life's doctrine.. like do good things to others, don't encroach on other's freedom, etc. etc..
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username101
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Re: Jesus
« Reply #10 on: Aug 29th, 2007, 12:41am » |
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religion was made to control people through fear because if we have nothing to fear then we would do wat ever the hell we want whenever we want so people created religion to control these urgers because without fear we truly live
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mikedagr8
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Re: Jesus
« Reply #11 on: Aug 29th, 2007, 12:53am » |
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Christianity is a rip-off of Judaism. I don't see how people can claim that a 'Messiah' was ressurected or is the son of God. According to Judaism, there are certain protocols to be a 'Messiah', and frankly Jesus didn't cut it.
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JiNbOtAk
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Re: Jesus
« Reply #12 on: Aug 29th, 2007, 2:47am » |
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And what exactly are those protocols of a Messiah, mike ? In what way does Jesus the son of Mary did not fulfill them ?
I'm a Muslim, and I believe that Jesus is the Messiah, translated Christ, translated the Annoited One. And I don't claim that belief only for myself; All Muslims believe that, on the authority of Muhammad.
However, going back to what username101 wrote :
Quote:| if jesus died for our sins so we could all go to even doesnt that mean that murders, petifilers and all the people that should burn for a eternity in hell can go to heaven 2 |
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Before commenting on that particular dogma, maybe the learned christians among the forum members could explain from where this idea came from. ( I expect it to be from the Bible, but maybe a specific verse of a certain chapter could give us a basis of what we are discussing about )
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| « Last Edit: Aug 29th, 2007, 2:47am by JiNbOtAk » |
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mikedagr8
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Re: Jesus
« Reply #13 on: Aug 29th, 2007, 3:02am » |
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Well, there are certain requirements as I said. I have been educated only briefly on the topic. OK here goes. Don't hold me to this, but from what I recalled...
1: Had to be a warrior
2: Had to be a 'Holy Man'
3: Had to build a temple... something along those lines
4: Be alive...so not die like Jesus did.
5: Bring peace to the world
6: Help the Jewish Nation
7: Destroy the evil doers of the world
OK, so of the following criteria, which had to all be covered, to be considered the 'Messiah', Jesus did not complete them all, and there are more to the list as well might I mention. So hence Jesus was not the 'Messiah'.
I wish I had some evidence to back this up, but it is out there.
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JiNbOtAk
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Re: Jesus
« Reply #14 on: Aug 29th, 2007, 3:34am » |
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My apologies to the Christians, if the reference(s) are off :
1: Had to be a warrior - Luke 22:36 "Then said he unto them, But now, he that hath a purse, let him take it, and likewise his scrip: and he that hath no sword, let him sell his garment, and buy one."
2: Had to be a 'Holy Man' - Mark 12:29 "And Jesus answered him, The first of all the commandments is, Hear, O Israel; The Lord our God is one Lord"
3: Had to build a temple... something along those lines - didn't know about this.
4: Be alive...so not die like Jesus did. - So you're saying the Messiah would live forever ?
5: Bring peace to the world - Matthew 10:34-35 "Do not think that I have come to bring peace on earth; I have not come to bring peace, but a sword." <It seems you're right on this point>
6: Help the Jewish Nation - Matthew 15:24 "But he answered and said, I was sent only unto the lost sheep of the house of Israel, "
7: Destroy the evil doers of the world - I'll leave one for the Christians to answer.
Like I said, I have no qualms in accepting Jesus as the Messiah, in fact, one of the mightiest messenger of God. It's part of our ( Muslim's ) belief.
However, to believe him to be the only begotten son of God, begotten not made, reincarnated to the world, to identify with pain and sufferings of mankind, and to die on the cross to absolve mankind from their sins ( if they accept salvation through him ), well, that's, umm, highly debatable.
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mikedagr8
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Re: Jesus
« Reply #15 on: Aug 29th, 2007, 3:39am » |
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Ahh, proof, well partial. Well, I am not sure whether living for eternity is specified, but to be the 'Messiah' your not exactly ressurected. For all we know, there may be multiple 'Messiahs'. But when they do arrive, there will be a universal utopia.
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Three Hands
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Re: Jesus
« Reply #16 on: Aug 29th, 2007, 8:59am » |
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Certainly a lot of Matthew's Gospel was written with the express view of pointing out the ways in which Jesus fulfilled the prophecies regarding the Messiah, as were the others to a lesser extent. However, one of the main points was that he was fulfilling the requirements in a somewhat unexpected fashion, hence why not all the Jews (especially most of the Jewish authorities) recognised the signs.
I suspect that a lot of it comes down to interpretation, though. It's been a while since I did any theological study, so my knowledge is a bit rusty, but I believe the evidence is pointed to within the Gospels to show that Jesus possibly fulfilled the requirements of the Messiah, depending on how you interpret the Old Testament prophecies.
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ThudnBlunder
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I thought the attached file might be of interest to some.
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Grimbal
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Re: Jesus
« Reply #18 on: Aug 30th, 2007, 6:32am » |
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It doesn't matter because faith is not a question of logic.
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ThudnBlunder
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Re: Jesus
« Reply #19 on: Aug 30th, 2007, 7:05am » |
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on Aug 30th, 2007, 6:32am, Grimbal wrote:| It doesn't matter because faith is not a question of logic. |
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Yet it is possible to be both faithful and logical.
Depends on what one chooses to believe in.
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SMQ
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Re: Jesus
« Reply #20 on: Aug 30th, 2007, 7:15am » |
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on Aug 30th, 2007, 6:32am, Grimbal wrote:| It doesn't matter because faith is not a question of logic. |
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Well, yes and no. Faith in the absence of evidence is one thing; faith in the face of refuting evidence quite another. It would seem to me that the above compilation should, at the least, rightly cause some questions among Biblical literalists. You're right that, unfortunately, it probably won't, but in my view that's more a matter of tradition and/or inflexibility than of faith.
For myself, I try to structure my own Christian faith such that it is both internally consistent and that there exists a reasonable interpretation of my beliefs which is not contradicted by other reliable evidence. I don't always succeed, and I've had to change my belief in the face of new evidence more than once, but the goal remains.
Faith and Reason need not be incompatible, they're just too-rarely mixed. 
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| « Last Edit: Aug 30th, 2007, 7:15am by SMQ » |
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mikedagr8
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Re: Jesus
« Reply #21 on: Aug 30th, 2007, 3:22pm » |
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Well, I am an atheist.
So for me there are no problems accepting this as true or false, but logically it's false to me.
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| « Last Edit: Aug 30th, 2007, 3:24pm by mikedagr8 » |
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JiNbOtAk
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Re: Jesus
« Reply #22 on: Sep 2nd, 2007, 6:31pm » |
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So, do you reason your faith, or do you structure your faith to reason, SMQ ? 
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Azgard
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Re: Jesus
« Reply #23 on: Apr 1st, 2008, 9:11pm » |
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on Aug 26th, 2007, 9:04am, rmsgrey wrote:
2) It means that anyone can get into heaven, even murderers, paedophiles, and abusive hypnodommes (don't ask) but only if we accept his offer. If we got what we truly deserved, everyone would go to hell - complaining about the idea of "really nasty people" being let into heaven is like meeting someone handing out $100 bills on the street and complaining that he's offered one to the homeless guy on the corner as well as to you... |
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It's a persuasion tactic. If you want someone to change their way of thinking or their behaviour, one of the things you can use (rather effectively) is a fear appeal. A fear appeal has 2 components (taken directly from the Psychology of Persuasion lecture notes):
1. Threat Information
-they use threats, if you do this, then this is what will happen to you!
-not no levels of threat, very specific and scary
-Severity
-Susceptibility -have to address the issue of “oh, it can't happen to me”
-have to make people realize that it can happen to them
-have to use issues that hit home
-you need to make it worth their while, and they have to believe that
2. Efficacy information -knowing that actions can be taken
-response efficacy
-if you engage in the prescribed behaviour, you can avoid the risk
-it won't happen to you if you do this
-self-efficacy of the person
-can I actually do this? Is this something that I, personally, can pull off?
-if people do not feel they can do the new behaviour, they will not try
-as persuaders, we need to pump people up to believe that they can do it!
So, putting this into context, and pardoning any and all errors I make (I do not follow a religion, and did not grow up with one, so I apologize)
if you continue living your life the way you are, you go to hell. Hell is scary, full of fire and brimstone, eternal damnation, etc... You sin, and therefor it will happen to you! But, if you accept this offer, get into the whole Christianity gig, you will be saved! Not only can you do this, you must do this, for the good of your soul!
Just my little insight. I recognized the tactic from one of my courses.
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JiNbOtAk
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Re: Jesus
« Reply #24 on: Apr 7th, 2008, 4:01am » |
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on Apr 4th, 2008, 1:13am, Iceman wrote:
You are joking, eh Icey ? Because to read someone who has an opinion such as yours, ( whatever religion he/she might embrace ) is disheartening, to say the least. I guess that's due to the fact that I'm a strong believer of religions, i.e. I believe everyone should believe in a system of faith. We might argue over the points on what we actually believe in, but to ridicule our own faith is, like I said, disheartening. Why would you mock something you believe in ? And if you don't believe it, why do you mock it in the first place ? 
Quote:| Well, yes and no. Faith in the absence of evidence is one thing; faith in the face of refuting evidence quite another. |
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An interesting point, towr SMQ. When you are faced with evidence which seems to contradict your faith, do you reject the evidence, or do you reject your faith ? If you reject your faith, did you ever had faith in it in the first place ?
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| « Last Edit: Apr 7th, 2008, 9:29pm by JiNbOtAk » |
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