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SMQ
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Re: Jesus  
« Reply #25 on: Apr 7th, 2008, 4:57am »
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on Apr 7th, 2008, 4:01am, JiNbOtAk wrote:
An interesting point, towr. When you are faced with evidence which seems  to contradict your faith, do you reject the evidence, or do you reject your faith ? If you reject your faith, did you ever had faith in it in the first place ?

Actually, that was me, not towr, that you quoted.
 
For myself, I'd say that there is very little which is truly foundational to my faith -- the Apostles' Creed roughly covers what I'd claim as essential -- and everything else is open to "tweaking" to better fit with my best understanding of the nature of reality.  But it's not really an either-or thing; the two, my understanding of my faith and my understanding of the world around me, generally grow and change together, and I've found that most seemingly-contradictory evidence, upon reflection, examination and discussion, usually serves to enlighten my understanding of both.  It's through the process of trying to form a cohesive and uncontradictory whole (gestalt) from the separate bits of experience/evidence that, as the cliche goes, I grow as a person.  I try not to reject anything outright if I can help it.
 
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Re: Jesus  
« Reply #26 on: Apr 7th, 2008, 9:58am »
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on Apr 7th, 2008, 4:01am, JiNbOtAk wrote:
I guess that's due to the fact that I'm a strong believer of religions, i.e. I believe everyone should believe in a system of faith.
Really? So should I take that to mean you disapprove of atheists and agnostics?
 
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We might argue over the points on what we actually believe in, but to ridicule our own faith is, like I said, disheartening. Why would you mock something you believe in ?
Mocking your own opinions and beliefs is good for the soul. It builds character. One might argue that any opinion or belief that can't stand up to it wasn't worth having in the first place.
It's like how you can make fun of your friends, but shouldn't make fun of strangers. If you can't mock your friends occasionally, then it betrays a very shaky basis for that friendship. If you can't make fun of your beliefs, then they also rest on a very shaky basis.  
 
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When you are faced with evidence which seems to contradict your faith, do you reject the evidence, or do you reject your faith ? If you reject your faith, did you ever had faith in it in the first place ?
I would say the most likely scenario is adaptation. The core of one's faith can typically stand the battery of evidence; the impact can be mediated by auxiliary articles of faith.  
Perhaps the world isn't really a flat square; perhaps the creation myth isn't really meant to be taken literally; things like that. Faith can adapt.
 
(This is very much the same way that science actually works. The falsification model of science, while it might be something to strive at, is not how scientists typically behave in reality. Scientists strive to conserve the core of their scientific paradigm by changing auxiliary laws and hypothesis. Paradigm shifts occur when there's no saving the old core, or if the younger generation of scientists prefer new paradigm and the old generation simply dies out like the dinosaurs they are Wink )
 
Of course you might still ask, "but did you really have faith then, if you don't hold on to the integral whole?". But any adaptation is likely to be projected backwards. You're likely to suppose you always had your current opinions in some form and wouldn't recognize a lot of the opinions of the you 10 years ago.
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Re: Jesus  
« Reply #27 on: Apr 7th, 2008, 10:53am »
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on Apr 7th, 2008, 9:58am, towr wrote:
Mocking your own opinions and beliefs is good for the soul.

Absolutely.  Every once in a while I have to remind myself that I actually believe that 2000-odd years ago some Jewish girl got herself knocked up by the big man in the sky (can you imagine being Joseph: "Hey Joe, your fiancee is pregnant, but don't worry, she's still a virgin; it's God's baby!"), that she gave birth (in a barn) to a guy who pissed off so many people by being a goody-two-shoes that they crucified him just to shut him up, that he not only refused to stay dead but went on to fly off into the sky never to be seen again (but he promised he'd come back "any day now!"), and that this all somehow pays some sort of cosmic price for my being a dickhead so that the big man in the sky will decide I'm worth having around and won't let me stay dead either.
Reduced to its essentials, it's really quite ridiculous. Cheesy
 
(But at least I don't believe I'm an impossibly old non-material space alien who's been wandering around purposeless since being flown to Earth in a DC-8 and blown up in a volcano some 75 million years ago.)
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Re: Jesus  
« Reply #28 on: Apr 7th, 2008, 11:26pm »
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on Apr 7th, 2008, 4:57am, SMQ wrote:

Actually, that was me, not towr, that you quoted.

 
Err, sorry. Blame it on the green stars.  Tongue
 
 
on Apr 7th, 2008, 9:58am, towr wrote:

Really? So should I take that to mean you disapprove of atheists and agnostics?

 
Of course. I disapprove of atheists and agnostics with regard to their belief system, not they themselves as humans. ( Just for the record, I have quite a few friends, some of them close friends, who are atheists ) I guess its not that much different than the atheist who disapprove of people who accepts their faith as a way of life ?
 
on Apr 7th, 2008, 9:58am, towr wrote:
Mocking your own opinions and beliefs is good for the soul. It builds character. One might argue that any opinion or belief that can't stand up to it wasn't worth having in the first place.
It's like how you can make fun of your friends, but shouldn't make fun of strangers. If you can't mock your friends occasionally, then it betrays a very shaky basis for that friendship. If you can't make fun of your beliefs, then they also rest on a very shaky basis.

 
I still believe that you should draw a line somewhere. Making fun of friends is ok, but would it still be ok to make fun of your parents ? ( Not joke with them, but make them the butt of our joke ) If we don't do it to our parents ( I'm assuming you agree with me on this ), then why should we choose to do so when it comes to God ? Although, in retrospect, I might be the only one who think so..  Undecided
 
Quote:
You're likely to suppose you always had your current opinions in some form and wouldn't recognize a lot of the opinions of the you 10 years ago.

 
I agree.  
 
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Re: Jesus  
« Reply #29 on: Apr 8th, 2008, 12:37am »
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on Apr 7th, 2008, 11:26pm, JiNbOtAk wrote:
I still believe that you should draw a line somewhere. Making fun of friends is ok, but would it still be ok to make fun of your parents ? ( Not joke with them, but make them the butt of our joke )
I'd say yes; but then it's a very 'in' thing here for parents to try and be friends with their children. So there is a slight blurring between the two concepts from my perspective.  
If a line is to be drawn somewhere, I would say it's not so much the subject of mockery, but the extent of the mockery (given a subject). I suppose that's a bit what you say with "you can joke with them, but not make them the butt of a joke"; although myself, I would probably be less conservative in placing that line. Outright humiliation should be excluded; but that's also the case with most friends, it takes a very specific kind of friend you can post dancing drunken and naked with a lampshade on his head on youtube without risking your friendship (and you'd undoubtedly have to be able to take as good as you give).
 
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If we don't do it to our parents ( I'm assuming you agree with me on this ), then why should we choose to do so when it comes to God ? Although, in retrospect, I might be the only one who think so..  Undecided
Well, I can see where you're coming from; if you can't mock your parents then you can't really mock God, as 'super-parent', either. It's interesting to consider whether to look at God as more of a friend or a parent; and what kind.
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Re: Jesus  
« Reply #30 on: Apr 11th, 2008, 11:48am »
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on Aug 26th, 2007, 2:03am, username101 wrote:
if jesus died for our sins so we could all go to even doesnt that mean that murders, petifilers and all the people that should burn for a eternity in hell can go to heaven 2

 
on Aug 29th, 2007, 2:47am, JiNbOtAk wrote:
Before commenting on that particular dogma, maybe the learned christians among the forum members could explain from where this idea came from.  ( I expect it to be from the Bible, but maybe a specific verse of a certain chapter could give us a basis of what we are discussing about )

Inviting someone to answer this is almost like saying, "Would all the 'know-it-alls' amongst you please put your hands up."
 
*raises hand*
 
Please understand that I am only skimming the surface of some very, very complex ideas in Christian (reformed) theology...
 
Of course, if Jesus died for our sins so we could ALL go to heaven then we would ALL go to Heaven. It's a syllogism and is like saying, if all men are mortal and Socrates is a man, then does that mean that Socrates will one day die?
 
Sadly the original question is built on a false premise (from a Christian's perspective). Not everyone will go to Heaven, and that includes some of those that think they're going to Heaven. Jesus said:
 
"Not everyone who says to me, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. On that day many will say to me, 'Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and cast out demons in your name, and do many mighty works in your name?' And then will I declare to them, 'I never knew you; depart from me, you workers of lawlessness.'

Matthew 7:21-23


We believe that God is infinite and holy. Part of His holiness encompasses His justice. God will reward and punish according to our thoughts, words, and deeds. Therefore any offence against an infinite and holy God must carry an eternal punishment. Hence every human deserves to be sent to hell.
 
To argue that you haven't sinned against God because you don't even believe in Him doesn't cut. In fact, denying His existence is to commit cosmic treason.
 
You might have heard people referring to Jesus as Saviour. So what did He save us from? Orthodox Christianity teaches that He came to save us from the wrath of God's punishment, a punishment that we fully deserve. This is called the "Good News": Jesus offered Himself in our place (as an atonement) and God's wrath was unleashed on Jesus during the passion. But more importantly, the righteousness of Christ (the reward of His perfect life) is imputed to us so that we can enjoy the rewards and benefits of eternal life in Heaven. However, reformed Christianity teaches that the atonement is limited and only covers those who God chooses to save.  
 
But SMQ made a very important point: we believe that God is just, so no one will end up in hell by mistake. The greatest miracle is that anyone escapes it. But who and how God chooses is perhaps one of the most perplexing mysteries we Christians face.
 
"The secret things belong to the LORD our God, but the things that are revealed belong to us and to our children forever, that we may do all the words of this law.

Deuteronomy 29:29


I believe the object of God's wrath (sending people to hell for their sins) and His grace (rescuing people for Heaven despite their sins) is one of those secret things of God. Anyone who thinks they can play the game of deciding who is or who isn't going to hell is stepping on very dangerous grounds.
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Re: Jesus  
« Reply #31 on: Apr 11th, 2008, 1:07pm »
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on Apr 11th, 2008, 11:48am, Sir Col wrote:
We believe that God is infinite and holy. Part of His holiness encompasses His justice. God will reward and punish according to our thoughts, words, and deeds. Therefore any offence against an infinite and holy God must carry an eternal punishment. Hence every human deserves to be sent to hell.
I find that impossible to believe. And I suppose I've said it before, and you'll probably disagree (possibly again). But, eternal punishment just doesn't make sense; at the very least there must be a chance for redemption. God is merciful; if there is no redemption possible, why not just end the existence of the person, rather than inflict pointless suffering and tarnish His divine self?
And aside from that, what can someone's sin really mean to the Infinite? Something so small to something so Large. The all-powerfull needn't assert Himself through force; fear is a tool for the weak.
 
Quote:
To argue that you haven't sinned against God because you don't even believe in Him doesn't cut. In fact, denying His existence is to commit cosmic treason.
There are rather too many different religions to blame people for not knowing which, if any, is the True One. It's nigh impossible not to sin against at least one of them; short of dying before birth.
Justice needs to allow for extenuating circumstances.
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Re: Jesus  
« Reply #32 on: Apr 11th, 2008, 2:03pm »
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This is not going to answer your question but it might help to explain the root of the difficulties we have in these types of discussions...
 
Christians that subscribe to reformed theology believe that the extent of sin in this world is so great that although we are capable of civic virtue (doing what appears to be good outwardly) our sinful nature does not allow our real motives to be to the glory of God. Moreover, no one will choose God without God intervening.  
 
"None is righteous, no, not one; no one understands; no one seeks for God. All have turned aside; together they have become worthless; no one does good, not even one."

Romans 3:10-12


Jesus says, "No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him." (John 6:44a). We believe that unless God's Holy Spirit works in us and changes our hearts we will never choose God. However, Paul writes, "For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, not a result of works, so that no one may boast." (Ephesians 2:8-9)
 
In other words, I don't believe because of anything I've done or anything that is intrinsically good in me. Rather it is by the grace of God that when I read these same words you've been reading that I hear them differently. Take the following passage as an example...
 
"Blessed is the man who walks not in the counsel of the wicked, nor stands in the way of sinners, nor sits in the seat of scoffers; but his delight is in the law of the LORD, and on his law he meditates day and night."

Psalm 1:1-2


This does not mean that a reward will be given to someone who does these things, rather the sign that he has already received his blessing is that he does these things. That is, someone who God has called chosen and whose heart has been transformed by His Holy Spirit will delight in the laws of God, whereas before God changes us we will despise God and His laws. In other words, we do not obey God out of an unholy fear of consequence, rather an intrinsic love for Him and what He has done for us.
 
As I said in my last post this is one of the most perplexing mysteries of our faith: why some are regenerated and others are not. However, we always come back to the fundamental principle that although we don't understand God's ways He is perfect and just. This means that whoever He calls to be chosen and does not chose can only be done according to His perfect knowledge and wisdom; He doesn't make mistakes.
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Re: Jesus  
« Reply #33 on: Apr 12th, 2008, 4:24am »
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In The Last Battle, the final Narnia book, C S Lewis offers his ideas on some of the questions of salvation and judgement. Two ideas stick in my mind:
 
1) The "good Calormene" - a man who spent his life worshipping Tash (the devil figure) rather than Aslan, and doing good deeds in the name of Tash, to find at the end that, while he was doing good deeds and calling on Tash's name, Aslan claimed them, just as Tash claimed the evil deeds people did while calling on Aslan's name. In other words, the name you use doesn't matter - it's what you do in that name that counts.
 
2) The final judgement, where Aslan stands beside a great gate, and all the creatures of the world come streaming towards him. As each approaches, they look upon the face of the Lion and some are ashamed, cannot bear to face him, and turn aside into the great darkness and devastation, while others, with joyful recognition, approach and enter the gateway. In other words, in C S Lewis's version, it's not God that decides to save or damn, but the individual who can or cannot face the truth about themselves and chooses to accept the price of salvation or not.
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Re: Jesus  
« Reply #34 on: Feb 17th, 2011, 6:00am »
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A few mysteries about Jesus - perhaps more appropriate under the "Truth" heading than you religious speculations.
 
Jesus Barrabas was released by Pontus Pilatus. His name can be read: Jesus "son of the father".
 
The gospel believed to be oldest (Mark) says:  
"A man called Barabbas was in prison with the insurrectionists who had committed murder in the uprising."  
 
Older texts use the defintie form, as if we knew about the insurrection. But the only one that occurred was the one in which Jesus was involved.
Barabbas was part of the resurrection (or perhaps a parallel description of Jesus)
 
Wikipedia: John 18:40 refers to Barabbas as a leistes ("bandit"), "the word Josephus always employs when talking about Revolutionaries", Robert Eisenman observes.
 
However, in the writings of Josefus who covers this period there was no uprising mentioned at all in the period, not until a decade or more later (e.g. the first Jewish Revolt of 66 - 73).
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Re: Jesus  
« Reply #35 on: Feb 17th, 2011, 8:23am »
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on Apr 12th, 2008, 4:24am, rmsgrey wrote:
... but the individual who can or cannot face the truth about themselves and chooses to accept the price of salvation or not.

Hmmm.....the ones who cannot probably gave others less choice than they themselves are getting at this moment in Libya, Bahrain, Yemen, etc.  Roll Eyes  
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Re: Jesus  
« Reply #36 on: Mar 17th, 2011, 12:08am »
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On the contrary, for a person to be a successful tyrant (is there an unsuccessful one ??), he'd have to have a great personal belief in himself. His sense of personal grandeur might be considered false by everyone else, but not to him.
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Re: Jesus  
« Reply #37 on: Apr 16th, 2012, 7:40am »
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on Aug 29th, 2007, 12:41am, username101 wrote:
religion was made to control people through fear because if we have nothing to fear then we would do wat ever the hell we want whenever we want so people created religion to control these urgers because without fear we truly live

Religion is not salvation.  Religion is a doctrinal approach twisted by man. If you were Catholoic per say, which is a Religional doctrine, and were told that everyone who was not catholic were going to Hell, then that is doctrinal falsehood.  The Bible says "whosoever will, let him come"  It didn't say only those people that are Catholic.  
 
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Re: Jesus  
« Reply #38 on: Apr 16th, 2012, 8:41am »
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on Apr 16th, 2012, 7:40am, wade32 wrote:
The Bible says "whosoever will, let him come"  It didn't say only those people that are Catholic.
It also doesn't exclude the possibility there may only be one way to come to him either.
Tough luck for however picks the wrong way, I guess.
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Re: Jesus  
« Reply #39 on: Apr 16th, 2012, 12:46pm »
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Was Jesus of Nazareth an extraterrestrial?
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Re: Jesus  
« Reply #40 on: Apr 17th, 2012, 1:17pm »
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on Apr 16th, 2012, 8:41am, towr wrote:

It also doesn't exclude the possibility there may only be one way to come to him either.
Tough luck for however picks the wrong way, I guess.

There are two possible sides to "No-one comes to the Father save through me": on the one hand, there's the exclusive interpretation - that there's only One True Way; on the other that, while there are many Ways, Christ is on all of them
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Re: Jesus  
« Reply #41 on: Jul 26th, 2012, 8:34pm »
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If you wish to get biblical. Here's a Brain Twister!
 
In the bible it clearly states Adam and Eve where the first and only two people created on earth.
 
It also states they only had two children both of which were boys.
 
Does than mean in order for the rest of humanity to exist eve had sex with her own sons?
 
If so are we all not a product of Direct Incest?
 
Thank god science came along and blew creationism apart or we would all be warped by now!
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Re: Jesus  
« Reply #42 on: Jul 26th, 2012, 9:54pm »
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on Jul 26th, 2012, 8:34pm, littlemisschic wrote:
It also states they only had two children both of which were boys.
Clearly you didn't read the bible very well, if at all. After Cain slew Able Adam and Even had many more children, including daughters.
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Re: Jesus  
« Reply #43 on: Jul 27th, 2012, 4:50am »
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on Jul 26th, 2012, 9:54pm, towr wrote:

Clearly you didn't read the bible very well, if at all. After Cain slew Able Adam and Even had many more children, including daughters.

Though that doesn't resolve the question of incest. On the other hand, nor does science - the usual picture of evolution is that we all descended from one common ancestor (or possibly one common orgy) - it's just that the incest in that model is rather further back...
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Re: Jesus  
« Reply #44 on: Jul 27th, 2012, 8:29am »
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There are plenty of asexually reproducing organisms. And also ones that can switch/'choose'.
 
Any way, when Cain left after his bout of fratricide he was afraid of what the people in the east might do to him, so apparently there were already more people than just those descended from the two God created.
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Re: Jesus  
« Reply #45 on: Aug 2nd, 2012, 5:57am »
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Mode troll on:
It doesn't matter, because Jesus doesn't exist. Or if he exists, he was just a human like you and me.
Troll off.
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Re: Jesus  
« Reply #46 on: Jan 5th, 2013, 1:40pm »
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on Apr 12th, 2008, 4:24am, rmsgrey wrote:
The "good Calormene" - a man who spent his life worshipping Tash (the devil figure) rather than Aslan, and doing good deeds in the name of Tash, to find at the end that, while he was doing good deeds and calling on Tash's name, Aslan claimed them, just as Tash claimed the evil deeds people did while calling on Aslan's name.

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Re: Jesus  
« Reply #47 on: Apr 1st, 2013, 4:03am »
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We are sinners until will accept the sacrifice of Jesus, and then will born again.... Grin
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Re: Jesus  
« Reply #48 on: Feb 2nd, 2014, 2:01am »
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Scientists proved that Jesus really existed. Just after a period of time the story about him change a lot.
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Re: Jesus  
« Reply #49 on: Feb 26th, 2014, 5:57am »
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The think i only knows is that He died for my sins on the cross, resurrected and be seated on the Throne. And i believe he was and is and is to come again. No matters what people say but I'll hold unto my faith till He comes that's what bible tells us about.
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