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ThudnBlunder
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Re: Presidents
« Reply #50 on: Jul 2nd, 2007, 5:31pm » |
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Here's a link to the story that doesn't require registration.
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ThudnBlunder
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on Jul 1st, 2007, 5:23pm, ima1trkpny wrote:| Bush is far more intelligent than you give him credit for... |
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Oh yeah?
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ima1trkpny
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Re: Presidents
« Reply #52 on: Jul 3rd, 2007, 7:36pm » |
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Ever considered the fact that he does in fact have a sense of humor http://youtube.com/watch?v=Dii3mzMQ3SQ If he was actually calling someone a photographer would not have been in the room as anything important enough to make the President call personally would be in private with only the cabnet in attendance. He is a nervous speaker who can get tongue tied, but could you talk eloquently knowing that you had the entire world watching? Could you handle the pressure of this office better? Even Steven Hawking can be proven wrong, yet when he is stubborn no one calls him stupid like they do Bush who has yet to be proven wrong. (I will be more than willing to listen to proof that he is but until then I will judge the evidence presently before me.)
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JiNbOtAk
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Re: Presidents
« Reply #53 on: Jul 4th, 2007, 3:22am » |
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on Jul 3rd, 2007, 7:36pm, ima1trkpny wrote:| Even Steven Hawking can be proven wrong, yet when he is stubborn no one calls him stupid like they do Bush who has yet to be proven wrong. (I will be more than willing to listen to proof that he is but until then I will judge the evidence presently before me.) |
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You're kidding rite ? What I knew about Hawking is far from being stubborn when found wrong, he admitted to be wrong, in print. Doesn't seem stubborn to me. As for Bush, hey, I might not like the guy, but whether he's the right person to lead America, should be decided by you Americans. Just as who governs my country should be decided by me and my fellow countrymen.
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ThudnBlunder
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Re: Presidents
« Reply #54 on: Jul 4th, 2007, 9:56am » |
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on Jul 3rd, 2007, 7:36pm, ima1trkpny wrote:| Ever considered the fact that he does in fact have a sense of humor |
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Ever considered the fact that he does in fact have scriptwriters?
on Jul 3rd, 2007, 7:36pm, ima1trkpny wrote:| If he was actually calling someone a photographer would not have been in the room as anything important enough to make the President call personally would be in private with only the cabnet in attendance. |
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Or maybe he wasn't talking about anything important.
Maybe he was just reneging on the Kyoto Agreement or opting out of ratifying any International Criminal Court legislation. Maybe he was merely reversing a 10-year US policy to eliminate all anti-personnel landmines. Perhaps the photo was taken much earlier while, as a God-loving Texas governor, he was rejecting his 155th plea for clemency.
But maybe he was.
Maybe he was talking about the present movement to impeach him or about committing more troops to his personal crusade in Iraq - his Dad must be really proud of him - or about giving his Corporate Oil cronies permission to drill in the Arctic wilderness.
But at the end of the day I suppose 51 million rednecks can’t be wrong. 
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| « Last Edit: Jul 4th, 2007, 6:36pm by ThudnBlunder » |
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ima1trkpny
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Re: Presidents
« Reply #55 on: Jul 5th, 2007, 12:03pm » |
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ThudandBlunder, I think we should agree to disagree on this one as I lack the time to waste arguing with you. I find myself siding with you on most issues and like your sense of humor, however this is one debate you have yet to convince me of and I lack the time to argue effectively. It would also be a considerable waste of effort on my part as you can't vote on it either way and you have not experienced first hand the circumstances in America that make me feel he is a good choice.
on Jul 4th, 2007, 9:56am, ThudanBlunder wrote:
But at the end of the day I suppose 51 million rednecks can’t be wrong.
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And as for that, go take a trip down to Texas. Those are some of the nicest most generous and hospitable people on the planet. Generally I find your sense of humor very amusing but this time it was way over the line. Just because people enjoy outdoor activities like fishing and hunting more than chess does not in any way make them stupid. I have two very close friends, who are the poster boys for stereotypical rednecks, who are also fantastic nurses. I can think of no one I would sooner entrust my life to in the event of a medical emergency then they as I know they take their jobs seriously and will work to the fullest extent of their ability. You would also be quite suprised to know they have a wide range of interests, are very self-motivated, and tend to be much better informed than many highly educated people you seem to think are so much better. They have great family lives with well behaved children and show nothing but the most impeccable manners. I have several times been down to Texas and the other "redneck" regions, and found nothing but the most charming people you could ask for, always willing to lend a hand or help a lost traveler. If this is the kind of people you feel are beneath you then add me to their ranks because I admire them as hard working people who are far better examples of decent human beings than you will find in more "civilized" (i.e. urban) areas.
JiNbOtAk, Hawking took well over 20 years to finally admit he was wrong after being forced to by overwhelming evidence. My point was not an attack on Hawking but that only time will tell if Bush is right or not. At the current time I believe him to be correct, but for him to say he is wrong when we have yet to see how events will unfold would be quite premature.
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Sameer
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Re: Presidents
« Reply #56 on: Jul 5th, 2007, 1:29pm » |
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on Jul 5th, 2007, 12:03pm, ima1trkpny wrote:ThudandBlunder, I think we should agree to disagree on this one as I lack the time to waste arguing with you. I find myself siding with you on most issues and like your sense of humor, however this is one debate you have yet to convince me of and I lack the time to argue effectively. It would also be a considerable waste of effort on my part as you can't vote on it either way and you have not experienced first hand the circumstances in America that make me feel he is a good choice.
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You still think he is a good choice in spite of him pardoning ppl like scooter libby and taking no action on gonzales? Lying through the teeth. Saying one thing at one time and denying having ever said that again? Cheney shoots a guy in face and the guy has to apologize? Now, come on there has to be some limit. I can't even go on listing things, I get depressed every time I see what this government does and tells everyday.
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ima1trkpny
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Re: Presidents
« Reply #57 on: Jul 5th, 2007, 2:22pm » |
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on Jul 5th, 2007, 1:29pm, Sameer wrote:
You still think he is a good choice in spite of him pardoning ppl like scooter libby and taking no action on gonzales? Lying through the teeth. Saying one thing at one time and denying having ever said that again? Cheney shoots a guy in face and the guy has to apologize? |
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As we all know sometimes you have to concede a fight, no matter how much you want to finish it, because if you don't it will hamper your ability to do things that may be more important. I have yet to see anything that makes me believe that he has knowingly lied. Only time will tell if his actions are justified or not, and even then not everyone will agree. I respect him because I feel he does what he believes is right and in the best interest of the people and in so doing focuses on doing the most good for the greatest amount of people knowing he can never make everyone happy and if he tried he would never be able to accomplish anything.
The shooting accident was just that, an accident. The man never had to appologize, he chose to. Every reliable source or account by witnesses indicates that it was a complete accident caused by miscommunication. It is most tragic that it happened but if the VP was so unconcerned he wouldn't have gone to such effort to make sure the man was treated instantly.
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ThudnBlunder
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I also have no wish to debate how many angels can dance on the end of a pin. But the voting demographic of the 2004 election is interesting. That bracing sea air must clear the mind wonderfully! 
Quote:| Generally I find your sense of humor very amusing but this time it was way over the line. |
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Don't worry, ima1trkpny, it was tongue-in-cheek but they don't have an icon for that.
on Jul 5th, 2007, 12:03pm, ima1trkpny wrote:| And as for that, go take a trip down to Texas. Those are some of the nicest most generous and hospitable people on the planet. Generally I find your sense of humor very amusing but this time it was way over the line. Just because people enjoy outdoor activities like fishing and hunting more than chess does not in any way make them stupid. I have two very close friends, who are the poster boys for stereotypical rednecks, who are also fantastic nurses. I can think of no one I would sooner entrust my life to in the event of a medical emergency then they as I know they take their jobs seriously and will work to the fullest extent of their ability. You would also be quite suprised to know they have a wide range of interests, are very self-motivated, and tend to be much better informed than many highly educated people you seem to think are so much better. They have great family lives with well behaved children and show nothing but the most impeccable manners. I have several times been down to Texas and the other "redneck" regions, and found nothing but the most charming people you could ask for, always willing to lend a hand or help a lost traveler. If this is the kind of people you feel are beneath you then add me to their ranks because I admire them as hard working people who are far better examples of decent human beings than you will find in more "civilized" (i.e. urban) areas. |
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OK, I am sorry if I offended these nice rednecks by implying that any of them would vote for Bush. 
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| « Last Edit: Jul 6th, 2007, 10:32am by ThudnBlunder » |
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ima1trkpny
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Re: Presidents
« Reply #59 on: Jul 5th, 2007, 5:37pm » |
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Hey, I am a Californian... and I am proud to say I did vote for him. Far better than Kerry and I will totally leave if Hillary is elected... boy will the country go to hell in a handbag if she gets elected. If God had a sense of humor, Condoleza would run... smart woman who gets things done... but she doesn't have enough political experience to be electible. (This is no big deal in my book however because as a general rule I hate politicians.) Another person I would totally vote for is Laura Bush, class act who, while she may be in the shadows, is a very capable woman. But at this point in this election I will have to pick the least of all the evils as I have yet to see a candidate I feel is worthy... but I would have just about anybody but Hillary.
Yes, I knew you were being tongue-in-cheek as you so aptly put it, however I still don't think that is by any means fair to criticise people who work hard and have a right to their opinion as well as to who should decide how their money is spent. If they feel Bush's agenda is a good idea who the hell are you to tell them differently?
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| « Last Edit: Jul 5th, 2007, 5:47pm by ima1trkpny » |
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ThudnBlunder
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Re: Presidents
« Reply #60 on: Jul 5th, 2007, 5:48pm » |
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on Jul 5th, 2007, 5:37pm, ima1trkpny wrote:| But at this point in this election I will have to pick the least of all the evils as I have yet to see a candidate I feel is worthy... but I would have just about anybody but Hillary. |
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How about the guy who used to be The Next President of The United States before your Supreme Court decided otherwise by voting down party lines? (Isn't The Law supposed to be independent of political affiliation?)
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ThudnBlunder
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Re: Presidents
« Reply #61 on: Jul 5th, 2007, 6:20pm » |
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on Jul 5th, 2007, 2:22pm, ima1trkpny wrote:| The man never had to appologize, he chose to. |
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I suppose it was something like, "So sorry about that, Dick. My face got in the way of your shot. That bird owes me. Hang on while I turn the other cheek."
Anyway, one would think that the second most powerful man on the planet would have better things to do than shooting dead wee, innocent birds for amusement. But I guess they had it coming. They didn't realize who they were messing with and were duly shocked and awed.
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| « Last Edit: Jul 9th, 2007, 4:04pm by ThudnBlunder » |
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towr
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Re: Presidents
« Reply #62 on: Jul 6th, 2007, 12:42am » |
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on Jul 5th, 2007, 5:37pm, ima1trkpny wrote:| Far better than Kerry and I will totally leave if Hillary is elected... |
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A lot of people said they'd leave if Bush was elected, more said they'd leave if he was elected a second time; few, however, made good on their promise.. So honestly, would you really leave?
Quote:| boy will the country go to hell in a handbag if she gets elected. |
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I doubt that one option is honestly that much worse than the other. And the first Clinton was far from a disaster for the US.
Quote:| Yes, I knew you were being tongue-in-cheek as you so aptly put it, however I still don't think that is by any means fair to criticise people who work hard and have a right to their opinion as well as to who should decide how their money is spent. If they feel Bush's agenda is a good idea who the hell are you to tell them differently? |
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He's someone with a right to his opinion?
Also being hardworking doesn't improve in itself one's opinions and decisions, and doesn't exempt one from criticism.
If people voted in Hillary next election, would you not criticize people that voted for her, even though they have the right to their opinions and the right to decide how their money is spend (or flushed down the drain, if that's how you might perceive it)?
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ThudnBlunder
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Re: Presidents
« Reply #63 on: Jul 6th, 2007, 10:42am » |
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on Jul 6th, 2007, 12:42am, towr wrote:
He's someone with a right to his opinion?
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I use the generic term 'redneck' about nobody in particular and she manages to get all offended by labelling her own friends as rednecks.
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Re: Presidents
« Reply #64 on: Jul 6th, 2007, 11:44am » |
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on Jul 6th, 2007, 10:42am, ThudanBlunder wrote:| I use the generic term 'redneck' about nobody in particular and she manages to get all offended by labelling her own friends as rednecks. |
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It may be nobody in particular to you, but those "51 million rednecks" do, apparantly, in particular include (some of) her friends. Nevermind that that 'generic' term is derogatory in nature.
And even from your usage it's pretty clear you didn't mean it as "fine, intelligent, upstanding citizens of america"; you might as well have said "51 million idiots". I can see how someone might take offense at such an opinion.
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ThudnBlunder
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Re: Presidents
« Reply #65 on: Jul 6th, 2007, 6:28pm » |
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on Jul 6th, 2007, 11:44am, towr wrote:| you might as well have said "51 million idiots". |
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So I say, "51 million idiots blah blah blah...." and she says, "Hey, some of my best friends are idiots!" and somehow I'm the bad guy?
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| « Last Edit: Jul 7th, 2007, 4:39am by ThudnBlunder » |
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ima1trkpny
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Re: Presidents
« Reply #66 on: Jul 6th, 2007, 10:57pm » |
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on Jul 6th, 2007, 12:42am, towr wrote:
A lot of people said they'd leave if Bush was elected, more said they'd leave if he was elected a second time; few, however, made good on their promise.. So honestly, would you really leave?
I doubt that one option is honestly that much worse than the other. And the first Clinton was far from a disaster for the US.
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Yes, I would leave or die trying (still in debate as to the exact relocation point and hopefully it doesn't come to that, as it isn't looking good for her in the sense that she isn't getting all the money like other candidates). Did you ever see the national health care system Bill put her in charge of designing? The problem with her is that she much more vicious than Bill... she is the one who wears the pants in that relationship and pretty much runs the show for both of them. She would be considerably worse than her incompetent hubby, as she has even less of an idea what she is doing, but far more insistant that she does.
Yes, ThudandBlunder has a right to his opinions (never once did I say he didn't) but lets keep those opinions to the leaders and not aimed at the citizens. I got upset about your use of rednecks because it's stereotypical meaning of someone from the south who loves shooting, hunting and other outdoor sports is synonymous with white trash, which in many cases is entirely backwards as what I would call "trashy" people are those who rape the system by getting everyone else to support them and their lazy ass tendencies. The particular people I was refering to have logical reasons for their voting choices in that they feel he best represents their interests. Their reasoning behind their decisions is none of his business and he has no right to challenge the legitimacy.
As to how I would react to the population if they voted her in, same thing. They are looking out for their best interest or what they think is in their best interest and who the hell am I to tell them differently? If asked I will discuss the pros and cons with someone who engages me about it, but as well as I may reason an arguement, I will never be able to be in their shoes and experience the exact circumstances that prompted their actions, and so they will either change their mind or they won't. But it is not my place to criticise, browbeat, or degrade them if they thought it out and came to a different solution than I. All I know is that she is most definately not in my best interest and so all I can do is take care of myself. I do however admittedly occasionally lose my temper at people like Paris Hilton however who campaigns for months for Rock the Vote, etc and then doesn't bother to do it herself (however this may in fact be a good thing as I am not convinced she does think things through... but maybe I am wrong... ) But at least with voters who have thought the dicision out they have taken the time and "put their money where their mouth is" and followed through in support of their decision.
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| « Last Edit: Jul 6th, 2007, 10:59pm by ima1trkpny » |
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Re: Presidents
« Reply #67 on: Jul 7th, 2007, 5:49am » |
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on Jul 6th, 2007, 6:28pm, ThudanBlunder wrote:| So I say, "51 million idiots blah blah blah...." and she says, "Hey, some of my best friends are idiots!" and somehow I'm the bad guy? |
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What she said amounted not to "Hey, some of my friends are idiots" but "Hey, some of those 51 million people are my friends, and you just called them idiots!"
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Re: Presidents
« Reply #68 on: Jul 7th, 2007, 5:56am » |
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on Jul 6th, 2007, 10:57pm, ima1trkpny wrote:| But it is not my place to criticise, browbeat, or degrade them if they thought it out and came to a different solution than I. |
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Perhaps we have a different definition of criticising; but I don't see anything wrong with criticising people's decisions and opinions. I'd agree, however, that it's another story to browbeat or degrade people for them; that's several leaps beyond criticism.
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ima1trkpny
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Re: Presidents
« Reply #69 on: Jul 7th, 2007, 1:01pm » |
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on Jul 7th, 2007, 5:56am, towr wrote:
Perhaps we have a different definition of criticising; but I don't see anything wrong with criticising people's decisions and opinions. I'd agree, however, that it's another story to browbeat or degrade people for them; that's several leaps beyond criticism. |
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That is fair but quite often people don't stop at just criticizing the decisions or opinions and move on to personal attacks which is the part I particularly despise. I think we are pretty much on the same page about that one. I may disagree with someone and tell them so, but calling them stupid for having a different opinion isn't fair... (that is only justifiable if they never thought it out at all and just copied someone else's opinion. )
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ThudnBlunder
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Re: Presidents
« Reply #70 on: Jul 8th, 2007, 5:05pm » |
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on Jul 7th, 2007, 5:49am, towr wrote:
What she said amounted not to "Hey, some of my friends are idiots" but "Hey, some of those 51 million people are my friends, and you just called them idiots!" |
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Anyway, I find it humorously appropriate that when I post a provocative over-generalisation such as 'All Bush voters are rednecks' somebody rushes to the defence of rednecks rather than Bush voters.
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Re: Presidents
« Reply #71 on: Jul 8th, 2007, 9:29pm » |
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On hindsight, whoever got elected ends up looking like the bad choice, mainly because we basically get to choose between two unacceptable candidates. That we have two less than ideal choices each election is partly the voter's fault because politicians know what it takes to win votes. Unfortunately what it takes to win an election is usually not what is best for the country.
For example, saying you will get the country out of debt by raising taxes and cutting government spending is a no win campaign. They need to say something like spending on education and medicial benefits will be increased and taxes will be cut, and then do some tricky bookeeping to hide the additional debt it would cause.
The voting process isn't all it is hyped to be. The comment made earlier about Paris Hilton involved in a get-out-and-vote publicity is opposite of the way I feel. I don't want uninformed people voting, so it is fine with me if Paris Hilton does not vote.
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JiNbOtAk
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Re: Presidents
« Reply #72 on: Jul 8th, 2007, 10:31pm » |
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on Jul 8th, 2007, 9:29pm, SWF wrote:
I don't want uninformed people voting, so it is fine with me if Paris Hilton does not vote.
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Are you saying that the voting process should only be allowed to the informed ones ? That doesn't sound very democratic to me. ( Not that I agree wholeheartedly with democracy anyway, but that's a different story ). If we were to limit who gets to vote and who doesn't, how is that different from racial or gender segregation ? The uninformed may vote wrongly ( from your point of view ) but that does mean his/her vote should not be counted.
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towr
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Re: Presidents
« Reply #73 on: Jul 9th, 2007, 12:30am » |
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on Jul 8th, 2007, 5:05pm, ThudanBlunder wrote:| Anyway, I find it humorously appropriate that when I post a provocative over-generalisation such as 'All Bush voters are rednecks' somebody rushes to the defence of rednecks rather than Bush voters. |
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Why would the bush voters need 'defending' if being a redneck isn't a bad thing in the first place? Certainly they're not all 'rednecks', but that's just a minor point of inaccuracy once the insult has been diffused.
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Re: Presidents
« Reply #74 on: Jul 9th, 2007, 12:54am » |
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on Jul 8th, 2007, 10:31pm, JiNbOtAk wrote:| Are you saying that the voting process should only be allowed to the informed ones ? That doesn't sound very democratic to me. |
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It is, as long as everyone is free an able to get informed.
Quote:| If we were to limit who gets to vote and who doesn't, how is that different from racial or gender segregation? |
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Reading up on political issues is a lot cheaper than getting a sex-change, and a lot less time consuming than reincarnating as a different race.
Quote:| The uninformed may vote wrongly ( from your point of view ) but that does mean his/her vote should not be counted. |
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That also depends on in how far they have been manipulated and in how far they are voting on their instincts. People are terrificly well adapted to massively make the wrong choice when prompted to, often to their own detriment. (Ancient Greek democracy has some great stories to this effect.)
One of the problems with elections is that they freeze one momentary popular opinion and you get stuck with it for several years. And every party tries to take advantage of this "folly of the day" phenomenon, among other things by promising tons of things they can't make good on. And people buy this crap wholesale, every time.
Once the politicians are in office they have several years to do whatever they want, and only have to worry about doing what the public wants the year before reelection, so they can dupe them again.
Perhaps it might be better if instead of one election every 4 years, you have an election every year by 25% of the population that replaces 1/4th of the politicians (if so desired by the voting public).
Everyone could vote out 25%, then vote in replacements. Or some such scheme.
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| « Last Edit: Jul 9th, 2007, 12:59am by towr » |
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