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Topic: To the roots of DRAGON... (Read 17554 times) |
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JiNbOtAk
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Re: To the roots of DRAGON...
« Reply #25 on: Feb 21st, 2007, 5:44pm » |
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From wikipedia :
Quote:| Dragons can have a variable number of legs: none, two or four. Modern depictions of dragons are very large in size, but some early European depictions of dragons were only the size of bears, or, in some cases, even smaller, around the size of a butterfly. |
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A dragon the size of a butterfly ?? Hmm....
How about phoenix ? Where did THAT came from ?
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ThudnBlunder
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Re: To the roots of DRAGON...
« Reply #26 on: Feb 21st, 2007, 6:05pm » |
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on Feb 21st, 2007, 5:44pm, JiNbOtAk wrote:From wikipedia :
How about phoenix ? Where did THAT came from ? |
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The ashes. 
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JiNbOtAk
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Re: To the roots of DRAGON...
« Reply #27 on: Feb 21st, 2007, 6:57pm » |
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on Feb 21st, 2007, 6:05pm, THUDandBLUNDER wrote:
The ashes.
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Ahh, but where did the ash came from ?
p/s : Starting to feel like the egg-chicken-which-one-is-first-thread.. 
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Icarus
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Re: To the roots of DRAGON...
« Reply #28 on: Feb 22nd, 2007, 6:18am » |
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I'm not sure about the origin of the Phoenix, but it likely was invented as a traveler's tale. I do know that Clement I (viewed by Roman Catholics as the immediate successor of the apostle Peter as Pope) referred to the phoenix in a first-century letter as an example of resurrection, so the idea was obviously in existence, and was well-known by then.
My best guess was that some traveler figured out that he could get more drinks and other favors if he spiced up his stories about what other places were like.
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mikedagr8
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Re: To the roots of DRAGON...
« Reply #29 on: Aug 19th, 2007, 2:46pm » |
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Lol. 
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p/s : Starting to feel like the egg-chicken-which-one-is-first-thread.. |
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The hybrid from between the fire breathing chicken and scaled egg, thats what a dragon was, but then it evolved into the humble chicken.
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CowsRUs
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Re: To the roots of DRAGON...
« Reply #30 on: Aug 29th, 2007, 7:32pm » |
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Someone drew a snake with legs and lost a bottle of wine!
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malchar
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Re: To the roots of DRAGON...
« Reply #31 on: Aug 27th, 2008, 5:31pm » |
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Looks like the discussion died down a bit here. On the National Geographic channel or something like that a few years ago I saw a show about dragons. I like the explanation that involves dinosaur bones, but there might be more to the story. Apparently, a dragon is a combination of three instinctive fears that are all caused by other animals. Basically, it's a frankenstein of sorts.
The instinctive fears may have followed with human since before we were even humans. Kind of like an evolutionary collective unconscious. These fears are as follows:
1. Snake - slithering, scaly, green. Able to leap up off the ground with a quick deadly strike. It's obvious why having an instinctive fear of this would be beneficial.
2. Raptor - specifically the talons that strike from above. This is much more dubious as to how it helps larger mammals, and perhaps it has traveled with us in some way since the very first mammals, like rodents.
3. Lion - the large jaws and teeth lead this instinctive fear. Also, the generally muscular body that is able to leap and pounce.
So the concept of a dragon is actually a combination of three known animals, and everything is done unconsciously. I don't understand it that great myself. In fact, I'm not sure if anyone does. After these concepts were starting to be realized, they probably showed up in dreams or art. After it started to catch on, people took some artistic liberties and it lead to what we have now.
As for the phoenix:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phoenix_(mythology) says,
"One inspiration that has been suggested for the Egyptian phoenix is the flamingo of East Africa. This bright pink or white bird nests on salt flats that are too hot for its eggs or chicks to survive; it builds a mound several inches tall and large enough to support its egg, which it lays in that marginally cooler location. The convection currents around these mounds resembles the turbulence of a flame. In zoology, flamingos are part of the family Phoenicopteridae, from the generic name Phoenicopterus or "phoenix-winged." "
Also, I thought that I heard it might be because someone saw a bird nest burn down but then some hidden eggs hatched out of it and flew out. Obviously dramatized, but events like that, when combined with the wikipedia information could lead to the phoenix legend. Also of note is that the "Chinese phoenix" is distinct from the Western phoenix.
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towr
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Re: To the roots of DRAGON...
« Reply #32 on: Aug 28th, 2008, 1:26am » |
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on Aug 27th, 2008, 5:31pm, malchar wrote:| Also of note is that the "Chinese phoenix" is distinct from the Western phoenix. |
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The same is true for dragons. Western dragons are in no way snake-like. Or for that matter raptor like or lion like. So I very much doubt it has anything to do with a "evolutionary collective unconsciousness", in which case you'd expect a lot more resemblance.
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JiNbOtAk
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Re: To the roots of DRAGON...
« Reply #33 on: Aug 28th, 2008, 3:40am » |
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on Aug 27th, 2008, 5:31pm, malchar wrote:1. Snake - slithering, scaly, green. Able to leap up off the ground with a quick deadly strike. It's obvious why having an instinctive fear of this would be beneficial.
2. Raptor - specifically the talons that strike from above. This is much more dubious as to how it helps larger mammals, and perhaps it has traveled with us in some way since the very first mammals, like rodents.
3. Lion - the large jaws and teeth lead this instinctive fear. Also, the generally muscular body that is able to leap and pounce. |
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And I thought dragons could fly.. 
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towr
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Re: To the roots of DRAGON...
« Reply #34 on: Aug 28th, 2008, 5:41am » |
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on Aug 28th, 2008, 3:40am, JiNbOtAk wrote:| And I thought dragons could fly.. |
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Well, so can raptors (birds of prey)
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malchar
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Re: To the roots of DRAGON...
« Reply #35 on: Aug 29th, 2008, 2:33pm » |
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Oh yeah, it might have been misleading, but by raptor I meant a bird of prey, like an eagle.
Anyway, I should explain it a little bit more. I think that dragons as we think of them now are very reptilian. It might not always have been true. In the very least, I think that a dragons claws are pretty similar to that of a raptor. Likewise, the face of a dragon looks similar to that of a lion. The teeth are quite similar, I think. I thought that the snake-like idea was the easiest to accept. Dragons are quite similar to snakes, especially the rather unique long reptilian tail. Perhaps more modern "realistic" representations of dragons have turned them into essentially crocodiles with wings, which is not exactly how they started. Then again, maybe it was.
This last bit might be shooting myself in the foot, but it's also very similar to the myth of the chimera. In the end, the dragon turned out to be a much more interesting animal.
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towr
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Re: To the roots of DRAGON...
« Reply #36 on: Aug 29th, 2008, 2:59pm » |
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Not very snakelike. (Admittedly it doesn't show it's tail, but every lizard has a tail, hardly a feature particular to a snake.) Definitely has no lion's head. Talons? maybe; front legs seem a bit birdlike, back legs seem more paw-like.
Certainly does not look like a flying crocodile.
Yet, distinctly a dragon.
Which isn't to say there are no dragons that fit your description; but every country has it's own, starkly different variations.
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malchar
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Here's an example to support my side of the argument. I think that this is especially typical of what people think of as a Chinese dragon. In fact, it fits my description even better than I thought it would.
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towr
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Re: To the roots of DRAGON...
« Reply #38 on: Sep 24th, 2008, 11:51pm » |
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There wasn't any dispute Chinese dragons fit your description; only that it was a general description of dragons. If the dragon image is based on primeval fears, as you supposed, then why doesn't it fit dragons other than Chinese ones?
The explanation doesn't seem to fit.
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| « Last Edit: Sep 24th, 2008, 11:53pm by towr » |
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