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Topic: LOGICAL SIGNS I - python and treasure (Read 23241 times) |
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adrian
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LOGICAL SIGNS I - python and treasure
« on: Jul 25th, 2002, 4:03am » |
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anyone able to figure out the solution to the logical signs 1 puzzle, with the python and treasure.
is it possible for both inscriptions to be true?? The gold chest states that "one of these inscriptions is true", but does not say one of these inscriptions is false, therefor is it possible that both inscriptions are true, and the gold is in the "gold" chest. Or would i have been eaten by the python.
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jj
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Re: LOGICAL SIGNS I - python and treasure
« Reply #1 on: Jul 25th, 2002, 7:52am » |
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I see two scenarios, both of which depend on "one of these inscriptions is true" to be understood as "one-and-only-one inscription."
In the first, the Gold chest statement that "one of these inscriptions is true" is true. So there must be one-and-only-one true statement. In this case, the other inscription must be false. So, "This chest contains the python" is false, and the Python is in the Gold chest.
In the second scenario, the Gold chest statement that "one of these inscriptions is true" is false. Since the Gold chest is false, what must the Silver chest be? If the Silver chest inscription is true, then there is one true inscription. But we already assumed that there is not one-and-only-one true statement. So the Silver chest must be false also. Since the Silver chest is false, the Python is in the Gold chest.
Both possible scenarios put the Python in the Gold chest.
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hai-yu-ken
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Re: LOGICAL SIGNS I - python and treasure
« Reply #2 on: Jul 25th, 2002, 2:38pm » |
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Honestly I don't like this question. It needs more information to solve.
I came to the same answer as jj. However, I would not open either
box, there is still the possibility that both of the enscriptions are true.
I say, pay someone to open the box for you!
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Franklinstein
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Re: LOGICAL SIGNS I - python and treasure
« Reply #3 on: Jul 26th, 2002, 12:47am » |
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If "One of these two inscriptions is true" is a true statement, then the other must be false because "one of these two inscriptions is true" Then the treasure must be in the silver chest.
If "One of these two inscriptions is true" is a false statement, then the inscriptions must be either both true or both false. However, If both inscriptions are true, that would contradict the statement "one of these two inscriptions is true" Therefore the inscriptions are both false and the treasure is in the silver chest. 
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william wu
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Re: LOGICAL SIGNS I - python and treasure
« Reply #4 on: Jul 27th, 2002, 2:52am » |
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Here's an e-mail that a Peter Surda sent me. I think you will find it enlightening.
Quote:
I think I found a bug [with logical signs I]. The person solving it is probably going like this:
- the statement on the golden chest can either be true or false
- if it is true, the inscription on the silver chest is lying and the treasure
in in the silver chest
- if it is false, it means the silver can't be true either and the treasure is
in the silver chest
- so the treasure is for sure in the silver chest and I'm gonna open it,
muahahahaha.
Well, wrong. It omits the third option: the statement on the golden chest doesn't have a logical value, similar to "This sentence is a lie". So basically, it is not determinable which chest holds the treasure.
Proof by practical experiment: as the person building the riddle, you put the treasure in the golden chest, python in the silver chest, and then write the inscriptions. And be astonished that the universe didn't collapse  .
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Conclusively, many people are arriving at their answers by initially assuming that the second inscription has some logical weight. Also, perhaps most disturbingly, they are oblivious to the fact that they are making an assumption. Consequently, through sound logic, they end up feeling 100% certain that the treasure is in the silver chest. However, these inscriptions actually could have been arbitrary. As Peter points out, he could've put the python in the silver chest, and then you'd go through the same logic and just get your head ripped off. So, in a real world situation, don't open anything. Or rather, just take hai-yu-ken's approach, and pay an expendable person to do it for you. I think that's the smartest thing you can do.
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[ wu ] : http://wuriddles.com / http://forums.wuriddles.com
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Adam Hanig
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There are a number of ways to interpert this.
1) The Gold inscription means "At least one of them is true". If only one is true, see interpretation 2. If both are true, than the python must be in the silver and the treasure in the gold.
2) One is true, one is false. This can come about by the contingency from #1, or simply from interpreting the inscription on the gold to mean "One is true, one is false." If the silver is true and the gold is false, then we have a contridiction. If the gold is true then the silver is false and thus the treasure is in the silver.
3) The ancients are f*cking with you. Perhaps they lied on one or more of the boxes. Or there is no treasure. Or no pythons. Or the boxes are empty. All you have to go on is a myth, and within that myth, nowhere is there a reference to what is written in the boxes. Maybe your translator is simply incapable of reading them right. In all honestly, people hiding treasure usually have safety precautions, like they do in the pharohs tombs, with all sorts of traps and tricks that require the knowledge available only to the person hiding the treasure. This is likely the case. I would leave some timed charges, or buy a mongoose, or ship them home after erasing the words and give them as a gift to a competitor. But under no circumstance would I blindly open two chests with inscriptions that I have no reason to trust in the first place!
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Artis Rozentals
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Re: LOGICAL SIGNS I - python and treasure
« Reply #6 on: Jul 29th, 2002, 2:40pm » |
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The python is long dead. Open both.
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LB
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Re: LOGICAL SIGNS I - python and treasure
« Reply #7 on: Jul 30th, 2002, 10:20am » |
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In the interview, you may have trouble explaining this to the question asker, who "knows" to open silver. Try this:
You: Why should I put any weight on what the boxes say? They could just be completely lying.
Them: What do you mean?
Y: There's no reason to believe anything on the boxes at all.
T: Well, you obviously have missed the point.
Y: No, I understand that if we give logical weight to the statements then it's simple and I'd say "silver" but that doesn't work.
T: No?
Y: No. If the gold box is telling the truth, then you obviously open silver, but if the gold box is lying, we don't know what to do.
T: Yes you do, you know that the statement on Silver must be false, because there is no true statement.
Y: Aha. But that's not true at all.
T: How do you figure?
Y: What if the person who filled the boxes ignored the inscriptions?
T: Keep going...
Y: Well, the inscriptions don't actually mean anything. The gold box just has some symbols on it. The only fact we have is that one box has a python in it, and one has treasure in it. I declare that one of my hands has a quarter in it. On my left hand I will now write "this hand has a quarter in it". and on my right I will write "one of the statements on these two hands is true". <reach into pockets, put quarter in left hand whithout interviewer seeing> Which hand is the quarter in?
T: The right hand of course...
Y: <opens right hand> Nope. <opens left hand> You see, what is written on the chests is irrelevant. Just because I put a sign on me saying I am the richest man alive doesn't make it so...
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Luni_B
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Re: LOGICAL SIGNS I - python and treasure
« Reply #8 on: Aug 2nd, 2002, 11:33pm » |
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Actually - as well thought out as any of the "logical" answers are...you can open EITHER chest safely. Webster has archaeology as the scirntific study of ANCIENT poeples etc etc, therefore any snake that was, is dead. Furthermore, Pythons can not lunge, so even if he is alive, just open the chests CAREFULLY, and kill the snake...don't give it the opportunity to "rip you head off".
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Tully Wilson
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Re: LOGICAL SIGNS I - python and treasure
« Reply #9 on: Aug 6th, 2002, 10:54am » |
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If you take the snake out of the silver chest and put it in the golden chest, then the silver chest is lying, but the golden chest wouldn't be telling the truth either because it's not telling you the snake is in the golden chest. That then makes the golden chest inscription false because the silver chest inscription is false.
Remember, it says "Only ONE of these inscriptions is true."
the catch here is that there's only one actual statement.
The only way the inscription on the golden chest is true is if the snake is in the silver chest.
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pqlier
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Re: LOGICAL SIGNS I - python and treasure
« Reply #10 on: Aug 7th, 2002, 8:01am » |
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My two cents' worth:
You either believe in the legend about treasure and pythons, or you don't.
The legend, as given, says nothing about the reliability of any inscriptions; so these should simply be ignored unless they are in a modern language. If they are, proceed with caution; one or both chests may contain dangerous explosives.
If you don't believe in the legend, open both chests for curiosity's sake (the chances of any ancient booby trap remaining operable would seem pretty slim).
If you do, you're forced to assume that the head-ripping python is a going concern; which means it must have some way of getting in and out of its chest to feed. So transfer both chests to a secure location and wait for the bastard to come out of its own accord. Then nick the treasure from the other chest.
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zarathustra
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Re: LOGICAL SIGNS I - python and treasure
« Reply #11 on: Aug 26th, 2002, 9:57pm » |
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Answer: Quit your job as an archeologist and become a mathamatician, its much safer. You probably weren't very good as an archelogist anyway if you didnt know anything about the two chests riddle before you got there. Consider it a good time for a career change. Before you leave, scratch out both inscriptions and instead write "Open both chests at same time for a surprise!"
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Icarus
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Re: LOGICAL SIGNS I - python and treasure
« Reply #12 on: Oct 8th, 2002, 7:04pm » |
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Logicians normally approach this sort of problem by examing each possible situation, and figuring out the truth value for each statement for that situation: Assuming that the legend is true, and that the threat is still real (it's a magic snake), there are still two possible interpretations of the "one of these inscriptions is true" statement. I will handle them separately:
First, if the statement means "exacty one of these inscriptions is true", which seems to be the more popular assumption above:
If the python is in the silver chest, then the silver inscription is true, and the gold inscription is a contradiction (to be true it must be false, and to be false, it must be true). This is not the same as being false.
If the python is in the gold chest, then the silver inscription is false, and the gold inscription is indeterminate (if it is true, then it is true, and if it is false, then it is false). Just as a contradiction is not the same as being false, this indeterminate situation is NOT the same as being true.
Thus in NEITHER case can you say that the gold inscription is true. And if even if you had reason to put faith in those fickle ancients, you would not be wise to cavalierly open the silver chest.
Second, if the gold inscription means "at least one of these statements is true":
If the python is in the silver chest, then both the silver and gold inscriptions are true.
If the python is in the gold chest, then the silver inscription is false, and the gold inscription is again indeterminate, not true or false.
In view of all of this, if I were forced to open one of the chests, and could find no less logically ept person to do it for me, and had reason to believe that the ancients were both logically inclined (so they would not mishandle it) and intended to leave a useful hint rather than a misleading one, then I would open the GOLD chest!
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Icarus
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Re: LOGICAL SIGNS I - python and treasure
« Reply #13 on: Oct 8th, 2002, 7:20pm » |
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As I look back over the replies again, I take back what I said about the first choice being more popular!  . I'm still opening the gold chest, but only if I'm forced at gunpoint! 
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Rohan
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Re: LOGICAL SIGNS I - python and treasure
« Reply #14 on: Oct 15th, 2002, 8:44pm » |
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My BLOODY god what a load of CODSWALLOP.
FRANLINSTEIN !! Well done. Look guys, you've got to give the riddle a bit of credibility, you can't go looking for flaws or proposing new philosphies and all that sh*t, otherwise you'll never get an answer.
If you follow the riddle logically the answer is the SILVER CHEST!, See FRANKLINSTEIN's reasoning.
Get a piece of paper, work through it.The silver chest.
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thelonious
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Re: LOGICAL SIGNS I - python and treasure
« Reply #15 on: Oct 22nd, 2002, 7:48pm » |
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Sure. Like when I say, "One of the books in the Library of Congress is written by Mark Twain", it's obvious I mean only one, right? There's only one way to interpret that statement, right?
The correct answer is to realize that the ancients didn't want people to take their treasure. A less than bright fellow would read that the snake is in this box, and open the other. A really bright fellow would work it out on paper, discuss it with his friends, debate it online, and then open the same box as the less than bright fellow. Ergo, it's in the other box!!
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Sylvie Tsie
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Re: LOGICAL SIGNS I - python and treasure
« Reply #16 on: Nov 26th, 2002, 7:29am » |
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Dump both of the chests in water. And let the contents fill with water. Drown the snake. Then open both chests.
The end
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towr
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Re: LOGICAL SIGNS I - python and treasure
« Reply #17 on: Nov 26th, 2002, 8:49am » |
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you'd think a snake from a thousand or so year old chest would allready be dead about a thousand years..
Drowing it seems like overkill
You could allways let Steve Irwing open the chest :p
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Wikipedia, Google, Mathworld, Integer sequence DB
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Killian
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Re: LOGICAL SIGNS I - python and treasure
« Reply #18 on: Feb 18th, 2003, 11:59pm » |
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I dont understand why it cant the treasure be in the bronze chest
"You know that at least one of the inscriptions is true, and at least one of the inscriptions is false."
If in the bronze chest then :
Silver Chest : Treasure is in this Chest ---- FALSE
Gold Chest : Treasure is not in this Chest ---- TRUE
Bronze Chest : Treasure is not in the Gold Chest ---- TRUE
Treasure being in the GOLD chest does not fit description :
Silver Chest : Treasure is in this Chest ---- FALSE
Gold Chest : Treasure is not in this Chest ---- FALSE
Bronze Chest : Treasure is not in the Gold Chest. ---- FALSE
Treasure Being in the SILVER chest Does not fit description :
Silver Chest : Treasure is in this Chest ------ TRUE
Gold Chest : Treasure is not in this Chest. ----- TRUE
Bronze Chest : Treasure is not in the Gold Chest ---- TRUE
So to have one inscription true and one inscription wrong , the treasure chest must be bronze
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Chronos
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Re: LOGICAL SIGNS I - python and treasure
« Reply #19 on: Feb 19th, 2003, 2:16pm » |
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It can't be the bronze chest, because in this problem, there is no bronze chest. You're thinking of Logical Signs II.
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angie
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Re: LOGICAL SIGNS I - python and treasure
« Reply #20 on: Mar 21st, 2003, 3:59pm » |
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Ok, seriously, this is not that hard.
if the icon on the silver chest was true, that would make the statement on the gold chest the false one. That would raise two possible scenarios, 1. that both are true, and 2. that both are false. They cannot be both true, that contradicts the gold statement, and if they are both false, then the treasure is in the silver treasure chest.
there you go.
good luck
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Wire17
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Re: LOGICAL SIGNS I - python and treasure
« Reply #21 on: Jul 5th, 2003, 11:35pm » |
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ok, assume the legend is true.
since pythons dont usually eat humans, and they cant rip off a humans head, u can assume that this is a VERY special type of python (ya know, a magical one), meaning a possiblity of eternal life. drowning may work, but it also may have no affect. since this is a special python, it would b able to lunge out of the box with incredible strength and kill u even if u cracked it open. and since u are dealing with ur own life, u likely wouldnt want to take a chance like that, just hoping the thing is dead.
the smart thing to do, if u were to dumb to solve the very ez puzzle, is to shake it or kick it. a python will make a much differnt sound than any treasure. u could get lucky and the python may hiss, or u may thump around and u can hear it moving. its as simple as that/
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oopyman
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Re: LOGICAL SIGNS I - python and treasure
« Reply #22 on: Jul 6th, 2003, 1:30pm » |
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on Jul 29th, 2002, 2:40pm, Artis Rozentals wrote:| The python is long dead. Open both. |
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Zeitgeist
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Re: LOGICAL SIGNS I - python and treasure
« Reply #23 on: Apr 4th, 2004, 5:25pm » |
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The first thing that strikes me while looking at the problem is that it is a man-eating python. Just have a woman open them both for some cut of the profit.
Another thing is that it's an ancient society who, because of the definition of ancient: Of or relating to times long past, especially those of the historical period before the fall of the Western Roman Empire , couldn't have known English, because English wasn't established as a language yet. Therefore, the legendary chests must be a hoax. You should just sell them off, as they are plated with precious metals anyway.
Just because the python can rip your head off, doesn't mean it will. Buy a lot of wild animals, and let the python have it's fill before you waltz on by, and take the other chest for your own.
Couldn't you shake the chests? Whichever thunked around like flesh would be the python, and whichever clinked or clacked like jewels and coins, etc would be the treasure.
A more time-intensive, but far more reliable, way would be to put both chests on extremely accurate scales. We'll assume that the ancients made them equal in mass to make it hard to figure out by mass alone. Place both chest-scale assemblies into a room, and monitor the scale readings over time. The python chest should decrease in weight, as the python would be more and more malnourished by the day, and would lose weight.
Drill a small hole into each chest. If there's a python, you'll be able to see it by shining a flashlight into it. If it's treasure, you will have damaged some of it, but the rest should be fine.
Water is also a decent idea...
See, you have to be creative about these things!
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rmsgrey
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Re: LOGICAL SIGNS I - python and treasure
« Reply #24 on: Apr 5th, 2004, 7:12am » |
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on Apr 4th, 2004, 5:25pm, Zeitgeist wrote:A more time-intensive, but far more reliable, way would be to put both chests on extremely accurate scales. We'll assume that the ancients made them equal in mass to make it hard to figure out by mass alone. Place both chest-scale assemblies into a room, and monitor the scale readings over time. The python chest should decrease in weight, as the python would be more and more malnourished by the day, and would lose weight.
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Firstly, you'd have to be able to move the chests - it's possible that they're built into the wall/floor...
Secondly, if the chests are sealed, then while the python may lose weight over time, the mass is still going to be inside the chest... You're better off watching for variations when it moves. Besides if it's a magic snake, it may well not be active in any way until the chest is opened...
The real question is whether you expect the ancients to be fair towards people trying to steal their treasure. What do you think the chances are of the chest with the treasure also having a cobra? Or triggering some other non-python booby trap (or even a giant foot...).
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