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Topic: Riddle from bible...(math) (Read 11488 times) |
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towr
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Re: Riddle from bible...(math)
« Reply #50 on: May 3rd, 2007, 11:24am » |
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But isn't God supposedly omniscient? He would have known the 'perfect plan' would go awry; he knew we'd screw up. (Besides, everyone knows any plan relying on people not screwing up is doomed to fail  )
It seems to me the whole path must have been planned (or foreseen, at least) and must have had its purpose. If the creation was perfect, it must still be.
It might be interesting to delve further into people's idea of hell and damnation. Is it 'merely' separation from God (which is self-inflicted, and something you can in principle redeem yourself from by turning back to God) Or do fire and brimstone, and devils poking you with sharp sticks, and eternal off-the-scale suffering, come in anywhere?
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| « Last Edit: May 3rd, 2007, 11:25am by towr » |
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Sir Col
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Re: Riddle from bible...(math)
« Reply #51 on: May 3rd, 2007, 2:34pm » |
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As a subscriber to reformed theology my beliefs are complex and could not even be fully outlined in several posts, but I shall make a brave, and maybe foolish, attempt to summarise some fundamental beliefs here. I'm sorry if it sounds a little like I'm preaching a "sermon", but there's no other way of communicating these key ideas in the traditional Christian faith. I suspect also that most of what I say will fail to address the deeply difficult questions already posed, but I hope you find it of some interest.
God is perfect in every way and in no other is found such beauty, splendour, power, grace, et cetera.
God delights in Himself more than anything else; otherwise something else would be more perfect and He would not be God.
God created mankind not out of any deficiency or need for fulfilment, rather an outpouring of His love.
We are created in His image, as a perfect God is only capable of creating something which reflects His glory. Hence man could not have been created any more perfectly.
This means, like it or not, we have a responsibility to reflect those magnificent attributes.
The chief end of man is to glorify God by enjoying Him forever; to place our desires elsewhere is idolatrous and a sin.
Adam was the most perfect man and is referred to as the ambassador. In other words, if any human was capable of getting it right, Adam was that man.
He rebelled against his design and delighted in something else. By entertaining other pleasures he chose death. It was pure free choice.
Augustine argued that Adam was posse peccare (capable of sinning) or posse non peccare (capable of not sinning).
The seed of man was from that first Adam infected with sin and we are now non posse non peccare (not capable of not sinning).
The "drama of redeeming history", which I mentioned before, and SMQ laid out beautifully, is the story leading to God's solution to the "problem".
God was never going to give up on us, otherwise, in His infinite knowledge, He would never have begun. He foreknew and planned the events of our history from all time. His escape plan was hatched from the beginning of time.
Jesus, sometimes referred to as the second Adam, lived that perfect sinless life and yet He chose to bear the sins of the world: past, present, and future. Like a sponge He absorbed everything that could be held against us and took it upon Himself.
The price of sin is death and Jesus paid that price.
Yet death could not hold Him, and He rose from the dead. If there were no resurrection then everything we believe would be worthless.
But Christ did rise and has laid hope before us so that whoever believes will not perish but have eternal life (John 3:16).
That is, for those in Christ they are holy and blameless as all their sin was accounted for on the cross.
We look forward to the purging of this world when we shall rise with our new bodies into the new heaven and the new earth and we shall be non posse peccare (not capable of sinning).
This final restoration, marking the final chapter in the "drama of redeeming history", is the reason I believe that no sin could have existed before Adam. Otherwise I would have to believe that the future glory is marked with shadows of death and suffering. Yet in Revelation 21: 1-4, John writes:
Then I saw a new heaven and a new earth, for the first heaven and the first earth had passed away, and the sea was no more. And I saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband. And I heard a loud voice from the throne saying, "Behold, the dwelling place of God is with man. He will dwell with them, and they will be his people, and God himself will be with them as their God. He will wipe away every tear from their eyes, and death shall be no more, neither shall there be mourning nor crying nor pain anymore, for the former things have passed away."
To answer part of towr's question, most people object to Hell because they think that the punishment is disproportionate. However it has been suggested by a teacher and theologian, John Piper, that when we stand before God, He could ask three simple questions:
Was it not plain in nature that everything you had was a gift and that you were dependent on your Maker for life and breath and everything?
Did not the judicial sentiment in your own heart always hold other people guilty when they lacked gratitude they should have had in response to a kindness you performed?
Has your life been filled with gratitude and trust towards Me in proportion to My generosity and authority?
Case closed.
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towr
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Re: Riddle from bible...(math)
« Reply #52 on: May 3rd, 2007, 3:07pm » |
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on May 3rd, 2007, 2:34pm, Sir Col wrote:To answer part of towr's question, most people object to Hell because they think that the punishment is disproportionate. However it has been suggested by a teacher and theologian, John Piper, that when we stand before God, He could ask three simple questions:
Was it not plain in nature that everything you had was a gift and that you were dependent on your Maker for life and breath and everything? |
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Nope. Not really.
Besides, if it's a gift, why are there strings attached? And why does it suck so much so often?
Quote:| Did not the judicial sentiment in your own heart always hold other people guilty when they lacked gratitude they should have had in response to a kindness you performed? |
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Guilty of disappointing me, p[erhaps. Guilty to the point of deserving torture or even a beating; or anything beyond a stern talking to? No.
And if they can't recognize a kindness for what it is because they are in no fit mental state to do so, then, knowing that: how can I blame them at all?
Quote:| Has your life been filled with gratitude and trust towards Me in proportion to My generosity and authority? |
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Perhaps not; perhaps not even in proportion to the generosity and authority I perceived. But ever considered why?
Why do we feel so neglected?
Quote:But what's the point in endless suffering without the possibility of redemption? Why not just remove the offenders from existence? That would be the merciful thing to do. And certainly God is more merciful than me.
He'd have every right to be disappointed, but that doesn't open the door for Child abuse. I'd be sorely disappointed in a God like that, and obviously I can't belief in a God I'd be disappointed in.
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| « Last Edit: May 3rd, 2007, 3:11pm by towr » |
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towr
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Re: Riddle from bible...(math)
« Reply #53 on: May 3rd, 2007, 3:25pm » |
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on May 3rd, 2007, 2:34pm, Sir Col wrote:| God delights in Himself more than anything else |
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That sounds ... rather vain. Not a pefect quality in people, and not imo in gods either.
Although it also make sense to delight in that which is most perfect, and if that's Him, then I find myself facing a paradox.
It'd be funny if God was self-depricating though  I'd so love him for that. Gotta have a sense of humor and relativization.
Quote:| Hence man could not have been created any more perfectly. |
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Not more perfectly as man, but if man was created as God he'd be more perfect (but no longer man), right?
Well, overall I can see where you're coming from. Although it conflicts a bit with my own views, of course.
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| « Last Edit: May 3rd, 2007, 3:26pm by towr » |
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SMQ
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Re: Riddle from bible...(math)
« Reply #54 on: May 3rd, 2007, 3:52pm » |
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on May 3rd, 2007, 2:34pm, Sir Col wrote:| As a subscriber to reformed theology my beliefs are complex and could not even be fully outlined in several posts |
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Wonderful! Brother, we really must get together sometime and have a schism! 
--SMQ
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Sir Col
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Re: Riddle from bible...(math)
« Reply #55 on: May 3rd, 2007, 3:56pm » |
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on May 3rd, 2007, 3:25pm, towr wrote:
That sounds ... rather vain. Not a pefect quality in people, and not imo in gods either. |
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The word vanity comes from the Latin, vanitas, meaning untruthfulness, foolishness, empty pride. As a human, delighting purely in oneself or anythinig apart from God is the folly of a proud and deluded person; it is sinful. However, God is perfect and God is truth, so He must know His own perfection and must therefore delight in Himself. He is the source of all things perfect and He would be untrue to Himself to delight in anything apart from Himself. There is certainly no vanity (untruthfulness or foolishness) in this. And from this it is clear why God does not delight in us except when we reflect His own glory.
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Sir Col
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Re: Riddle from bible...(math)
« Reply #56 on: May 3rd, 2007, 4:15pm » |
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on May 3rd, 2007, 3:52pm, SMQ wrote:
Wonderful! Brother, we really must get together sometime and have a schism!
--SMQ |
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Indeed the "thinking man's Christianity" (a.k.a. reformed theology) rooted in a passion to know and delight in God is a waning tradition. I weep at the sentimental, "God's my mate", self-seeking, "feel the truth" Christianity that has become mainstream today.
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Re: Riddle from bible...(math)
« Reply #57 on: May 3rd, 2007, 5:21pm » |
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The downside being: you put three Reformed theologians in a room together, you'll have six new Reformed denominations -- at least one of which will have its own parochial school system, university and seminary -- by the time they come out...
Don't get me wrong, I've very much appreciated and benefited from the well-reasoned doctrinal rigor of growing up in a Reformed tradition, but the seemingly-inherent tendency to fragment drives me up a wall. (From Wikipedia: A 1999 survey found 746 Reformed denominations worldwide.)
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Icarus
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Re: Riddle from bible...(math)
« Reply #58 on: May 3rd, 2007, 7:31pm » |
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on May 3rd, 2007, 12:05am, BNC wrote:A bit of a highjack... does it mean you beleive a person's actions mean nothing at all, only that person's strust in god / Jesus?
Because, if you do, your version of heaven just may be a place I'd rather avoid. |
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I'll go along pretty much with SMQ here. The christian is not saved because he is good. A christian is good because he is saved. We are sinners, lost until we accept God's salvation. The first and most important part of that salvation is forgiveness for the sins we have committed. His salvation is offered freely to any who will accept it. Once we have accepted it, then out of gratitude and love for God, we seek to change our lives with his help, to make our lives something pleasing to him.
Our salvation was earned entirely by Jesus, not by our own efforts. We do not need to become good to be saved. But once we have been saved, we will desire to become good (or increase in desire). And we will have his guidance and power to help.
on May 3rd, 2007, 8:52am, towr wrote:| My image of God is one of Fairness and Love. I cannot reconcile that with eternal damnation and inherited sin; and I need not. |
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I don't believe in inherited sin either, not even the "original sin". My beliefs on this put me in a minority of christians, I admit, but I do not see that the bible requires this idea. We suffer the ongoing consequences of that sin (i.e., death), but God does not hold us guilty of the sin itself. Rather, it is like the case of a man who sets fire to his house without realizing his son is inside. The son lives, but must live the rest of his life with the scars, though he is innocent of the crime.
Ezekiel 18 is a diatribe against the idea of inherited sin.
Quote:| I don't think God would punish someone for something they did before they could tell right from wrong; let alone punish every generation to come. |
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That is just it, isn't it? "Where there is no Law, there is no sin" Romans 4:15. God does not impugn sin to the ignorant. However, the bible also says that everyone has a conscience that guides them in knowing right from wrong, so no one of age can claim to be innocent of everything by way of ignorance.
Quote:| Nor do I believe that God would care much whether one believed in something that can easily be perceived as nothing but a story. |
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Thus my comment about it not mattering in the end what interpretation one follows for Genesis. This is a side issue which does not destroy my relationship with God if I get it wrong.
Quote:| Much moreso I believe that he cares about the character, and behaviour, of us, his Children. And that he hopes for us to be the best we can be -- but at the same time does not require more of us than we can be. |
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Indeed. But he loves us even when we don't have that character and accepts us before we develop it, in order that we may use his strength to help us in developing a good character. In the parable of the prodigal son, the father runs to greet the returning wayward son as soon as he sees him, and celebrates his return, even though the son has done nothing to redeem himself - other than returning. He does not require that the son first work off his debt. He does not require that the son do acts of penance. He has his son back, and that is all the father wants.
But I cannot agree with you on eternal damnation. Jesus was very plain in his teachings on the subject (which were quite extensive). God is a god of justice as well as love. He must punish those who reject goodness and choose to sin. And his perspective is different from ours. What may seem small to us is big in his eyes, and vice versa. Without the sacrifice of Jesus, we would all be lost.
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Sir Col
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Re: Riddle from bible...(math)
« Reply #59 on: May 4th, 2007, 12:09am » |
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SQM, I agree - it is a tragedy that such divisions are found in a religion founded on unity. However, I make a distinction between my theology and denomination. That is, I subscribe to reformed theology but I was raised in the Anglican church, of which I still faithfully attend.
Icarus, in my understanding of original sin it is not so much that we're born guilty of a particular sin, rather we are born incapable of not sinning; we are born to rebel against our proper design and our hearts are hardened against God. To coin a slogan: "We're not sinners because we sin, we sin because we're sinners."
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towr
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Re: Riddle from bible...(math)
« Reply #60 on: May 4th, 2007, 3:31am » |
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on May 3rd, 2007, 3:56pm, Sir Col wrote:| The word vanity comes from the Latin, vanitas, meaning untruthfulness, foolishness, empty pride. |
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Unsurprisingly I meant the modern meaning of the word  But luckily that hardly affects the rest of your argument. I'll ponder on it.
on May 4th, 2007, 12:09am, Sir Col wrote:| we are born to rebel against our proper design |
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But rebelling is part of our design..?
(I suppose it's nicely recursive; we only need to rebel against our rebellious nature and we're back on track)
on May 3rd, 2007, 7:31pm, Icarus wrote:| But I cannot agree with you on eternal damnation. |
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What kind of damnation, though? The fire-and-brimstone kind, or the being-away-from-God kind? (Or some other option)
As for eternity, the parable of the prodigal son tells me God wants us to return to him, no matter when. If he wants us to return, it doesn't make sense He'd banish us forever.
Quote:| God is a god of justice as well as love. He must punish those who reject goodness and choose to sin. |
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I tend towards the view that God doesn't need to punish us, because we punish ourselves. He only has to allow us free will (allow us to make our own mistakes). When we turn from God, that is our punishment; God needn't add to that burden one bit.
And when we return Home our punishment ends.
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BNC
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Re: Riddle from bible...(math)
« Reply #61 on: May 4th, 2007, 4:54am » |
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on May 3rd, 2007, 7:31pm, Icarus wrote:
I'll go along pretty much with SMQ here. The christian is not saved because he is good. A christian is good because he is saved. We are sinners, lost until we accept God's salvation. The first and most important part of that salvation is forgiveness for the sins we have committed. His salvation is offered freely to any who will accept it. Once we have accepted it, then out of gratitude and love for God, we seek to change our lives with his help, to make our lives something pleasing to him.
Our salvation was earned entirely by Jesus, not by our own efforts. We do not need to become good to be saved. But once we have been saved, we will desire to become good (or increase in desire). And we will have his guidance and power to help. |
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But we are still human beings, flawed and imperfect. Thus, even a true Christian, who excepted god and had his guidance, can be wrong, can sin, can even fall down to the point of doing horrible (unchristian) deeds.
On the other hand, we were created in god's image. Therefore, we all have a godly streak in us. Thus (I believe) a person can do right, can be kind and gentle and loving, can act in a godly manner, even if he is not a Christian. Some may call it divine guidance. OK with me -- I don't believe only Christians are able to do right.
But! Your version of heaven will admit the bad (child-molester / serial killer / kitten torturer / whatever) Christian, but will send the good (charity doing / people-in-need helper / putting others in front of himself / whatever) non-Christian to Hell.
That, my friend, in my book, is twisted.
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Re: Riddle from bible...(math)
« Reply #62 on: May 4th, 2007, 5:54am » |
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on May 4th, 2007, 3:31am, towr wrote:| What kind of damnation, though? The fire-and-brimstone kind, or the being-away-from-God kind? (Or some other option) |
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Again, speaking only for myself: imagine this world, but without most of the people who are capable of consistently putting the good of others/society ahead of their own. Now imagine it forever. Seems to me there would be plenty of suffering to go around. (And I certainly wouldn't put it past humanity to create their own "lake of fire and brimstone" -- maybe that's less a punishment and more a foreknowledge of what we'll do to this place left to our own devices. But that's just wild speculation, even for me.  )
Quote:| As for eternity, the parable of the prodigal son tells me God wants us to return to him, no matter when. If he wants us to return, it doesn't make sense He'd banish us forever. |
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Again, my own view is that exile will be self-imposed: that there will always be the option to sincerely repent, but few will take it, valuing their pride more, even (or especially) in the face of great suffering.
Quote:| When we turn from God, that is our punishment; God needn't add to that burden one bit. And when we return Home our punishment ends. |
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I think you and I are mostly in agreement there.
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Re: Riddle from bible...(math)
« Reply #63 on: May 4th, 2007, 8:44pm » |
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on May 4th, 2007, 4:54am, BNC wrote:| But we are still human beings, flawed and imperfect. Thus, even a true Christian, who excepted god and had his guidance, can be wrong, can sin, can even fall down to the point of doing horrible (unchristian) deeds. |
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Can, and do. Becoming christian does not make us perfect. It does give us much assistance in the struggle, though.
Quote:| On the other hand, we were created in god's image. Therefore, we all have a godly streak in us. Thus (I believe) a person can do right, can be kind and gentle and loving, can act in a godly manner, even if he is not a Christian. Some may call it divine guidance. OK with me -- I don't believe only Christians are able to do right. |
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Neither do I. It is exactly because non-christians are not without guidance, and are capable of knowing and doing good, that they are without excuse when they fail to do good. And everyone fails and does evil on occasion. Contrary to what so many think, God has no balance scale. He does not weigh the good against the evil. Evil is evil in his book, and any of it not acceptable.
Christians also are without excuse when we fail to good. The only difference is that we accept God's mercy. Mercy is by definition unearnable. If it were earned, it would be your wages, not mercy. But perhaps I and the others have not been clear here. God's mercy is not available to everyone who just believes in Jesus. As James says, "Even the demons believe, and shudder". Rather, you must repent of your sin: reject it, turn away from it, and purpose never to do it again. You may fail in that purpose repeatedly, but it must be your intent. Only then is God's mercy available.
Quote:| But! Your version of heaven will admit the bad (child-molester / serial killer / kitten torturer / whatever) Christian, but will send the good (charity doing / people-in-need helper / putting others in front of himself / whatever) non-Christian to Hell. |
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No. My version of heaven will admit the former child-molester, former serial killer, former kitten torturer who becomes christian. This is the great glory of christianity: It is the religion of the second chance. Just because you've blown it doesn't mean that all hope is gone, no matter how awful you've been.
That child-molester/serial killer/kitten torturer was once an innocent child. God has not forgotten that child, even though you have. If the evil man recognizes his evil, rejects that evil, humbles himself and chooses Christ instead, then God is willing to show mercy and forgive him. Of course the man does not deserve the mercy. If it were deserved, then it would not be mercy. This is a great glory, and it provides great hope. For I am no better than such a man. He fell into his depravity by making bad choices. I too have made bad choices. If I have not done those same things, it is because I have been luckier in my bad choices, not because I am in some way better than him. And while my sins may seem less horrible to me, God has a different perspective, and to him all sin is evil. Therefore I rejoice that God has mercy on evil men! Because I am one, and without his mercy I am lost.
Now consider your flip side: the good non-christian. How good? Without sin? If so, then God plainly says such a one needs no salvation. He was never lost. But only one adult person has ever lived without sin: Jesus. So the good non-christian is not perfectly good. Now why does he not accept God's forgiveness? Because he does not know of it? Jesus said that the servant who doesn't do his master's will because he was ignorant of it will receive few lashes. Such a man is subject to God's Judgement. Whether he will be condemned or forgiven, I do not know.
But suppose he does know of God's forgiveness. Then why has he not accepted it? Multitudinous excuses may be found, but in the end, they all boil down to pride. Accepting God's forgiveness means accepting that you are guilty, and accepting that you cannot overcome your sin by your own efforts. Pride may seem a small thing to us, but it is huge in God's eyes. Pride was the source from which all evil sprang. If you desire heaven, you cannot get there while holding on to a self-centered pride.
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Barukh
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Re: Riddle from bible...(math)
« Reply #64 on: May 4th, 2007, 10:41pm » |
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Hmm...
Is it still math?
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ThudnBlunder
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Re: Riddle from bible...(math)
« Reply #65 on: May 5th, 2007, 1:31am » |
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on May 4th, 2007, 10:41pm, Barukh wrote:
Is it not  in the Sky?
But perhaps it would be better in 'What Am I?' or 'What Happened?'
Or we could just create a new thread called 'Us and Them: The Saved and The UnSaved'.
And if we subtitled it 'The Great Divide' we could even sneak it into Putnam.
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| « Last Edit: May 13th, 2007, 11:27am by ThudnBlunder » |
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Re: Riddle from bible...(math)
« Reply #66 on: May 6th, 2007, 2:31pm » |
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Or possibly, you could just accept that there are people who disagree with you and that they have the right to politely express their opinions too, and explain and correct when other respondents twist those ideas to be something other than they are.
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ThudnBlunder
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Re: Riddle from bible...(math)
« Reply #67 on: May 13th, 2007, 8:57am » |
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on May 6th, 2007, 2:31pm, Icarus wrote:| Or possibly, you could just accept that there are people who disagree with you and that they have the right to politely express their opinions too, and explain and correct when other respondents twist those ideas to be something other than they are. |
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Or I could accept that the difference between your viewpoint and mine is probably best explained by our respective avatar sigs.
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| « Last Edit: May 13th, 2007, 9:53am by ThudnBlunder » |
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