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Topic: telekinesis (Read 10934 times) |
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srn437
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Re: telekinesis
« Reply #25 on: Sep 15th, 2007, 12:20pm » |
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Yes, but you only think about it! If you let your mind wander and think about lots of other stuff, it won't work.
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Sir Col
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Re: telekinesis
« Reply #26 on: Sep 15th, 2007, 4:52pm » |
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I appreciate your attempt at answering, but you're not quite understanding my questions. I'll try making things simpler for you and ask one question at a time...
If an object moves then something made it move (Newton's first law of motion).
Physical objects are moved by physical forces.
What physical force moved the object?
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srn437
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Re: telekinesis
« Reply #27 on: Sep 16th, 2007, 9:26am » |
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the energy from your mind.
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towr
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Re: telekinesis
« Reply #28 on: Sep 16th, 2007, 10:03am » |
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on Sep 16th, 2007, 9:26am, srn347 wrote:| the energy from your mind. |
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Energy isn't a force.
It also doesn't in the slightest explain the causal mechanism behind how the mind supposedly moves an object by telekinesis; it's purely magical explanation.
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srn437
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Re: telekinesis
« Reply #29 on: Sep 16th, 2007, 3:53pm » |
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It is not magic! If you refuse to believe it(although you have that right), you won't be able to use it.
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ThudnBlunder
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Re: telekinesis
« Reply #30 on: Sep 16th, 2007, 5:46pm » |
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Don't worry srn347, if you are really 13 you should be able to demonstrate mind-over-matter to everyone in less than 18 months!
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| « Last Edit: Jul 5th, 2008, 12:39am by ThudnBlunder » |
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srn437
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Re: telekinesis
« Reply #31 on: Sep 16th, 2007, 5:54pm » |
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Thanks. How is age involved though?...
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ThudnBlunder
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Re: telekinesis
« Reply #32 on: Sep 16th, 2007, 6:06pm » |
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on Sep 16th, 2007, 5:54pm, srn347 wrote:| Thanks. How is age involved though?... |
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Ask Daddy.
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srn437
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Re: telekinesis
« Reply #33 on: Sep 16th, 2007, 6:22pm » |
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Hopefully you don't mean what I think you mean.
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ThudnBlunder
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Re: telekinesis
« Reply #34 on: Sep 16th, 2007, 6:46pm » |
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While we are on the subject, at a recent teacher training interview I had to write a 500-word test essay, which ended as follows:
Does education allow us to pursue the truth? What is 'the truth'? It must necessarily remain a subjective ideal. Considering the study of history, for example, while certain facts may be indisputable, their interpretation often is not. In physics, the more we probe the nature of matter, the more it appears to this observer that mind and matter are one, in the sense that the entities we are forced to invent and describe are more mathematical abstraction than physical reality. Complemented by empirical methodologies as it is, theoretical quantum physics is subject to the limitations of the scientific method and in my opinion the search for the chimerical Theory of Everything is thus doomed to failure. Even in the idealised world of mathematical axioms there is uncertainty, since no system can prove its own logical consistency - and conversely, if a system is logically consistent it must contain some true yet unprovable statements. In other words, education leaves us better informed but none the wiser.
Comments from non-minors welcome.
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| « Last Edit: Sep 17th, 2007, 1:35am by ThudnBlunder » |
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srn437
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Re: telekinesis
« Reply #35 on: Sep 16th, 2007, 6:59pm » |
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The truth?! I can use paradoxes to make anything become the truth. example: if this sentence is true, the world will end in a week. If that sentence is true the world will end in a week, which is what the sentence says, so it is true, so the world will end in a week.
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ima1trkpny
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Re: telekinesis
« Reply #36 on: Sep 16th, 2007, 10:26pm » |
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on Sep 16th, 2007, 6:46pm, ThudanBlunder wrote:
Comments from non-minors welcome.
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Hey, there are a couple minors on here who aren't to bad, mikeda8 included...
But interesting conclusion, I would be interested in reading the rest of the paper. So far, amen... however I wonder over the choice, considering it was for a teacher training interview... educators generally like to hear that they are succeeding in shedding light upon the "ignorance" of man. 
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Sir Col
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Re: telekinesis
« Reply #37 on: Sep 17th, 2007, 12:34am » |
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So you're going to take the plunge, TanB? The closing remarks in your essay are insightful, but my experience of teacher training institutions, and the educators within, suggest that your words will fail to be fully appreciated. And those that do appreciate what you're actually saying will do their best to extinguish such challenging words.
I find that education, from an educators perspective, is so pre-occupied with how to teach that they never ask the question, "Why do we teach what we teach?" In other words, on what grounds is the curriculum determined? And to address your question of whether or not education allows us to pursue truth depends on what is being taught. Who determines this and on what basis do they decide? Where do they get their "authority" from? As we live in an age dedicated to individualism and relativism it seems that we are doomed to be everything and nothing, driven by ignorance towards an unknown destination. And who says that I am not an inspirational teacher?
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ThudnBlunder
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Re: telekinesis
« Reply #38 on: Sep 17th, 2007, 1:33am » |
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Any thoughts on the physics bit?
In physics, the more we probe the nature of matter, the more it appears to this observer that mind and matter are one, in the sense that the entities we are forced to invent and describe are more mathematical abstraction than physical reality. Complemented by empirical methodologies as it is, theoretical quantum physics is subject to the limitations of the scientific method and in my opinion the search for the chimerical Theory of Everything is thus doomed to failure.
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| « Last Edit: Sep 17th, 2007, 2:37am by ThudnBlunder » |
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Sir Col
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Re: telekinesis
« Reply #39 on: Sep 17th, 2007, 1:53am » |
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On such matters my opinions are less well founded, but...
It seems to me that science aims to achieve understanding by two distinct processes: categorisation and determinsation (I made this word up). Categorisation is the system of classifying objects/entities according to their properties, similarities, and differences; determinisation is about modelling their behaviour through predictive systems, whether that be mathematical models or prescriptive repeatable processes.
Categorisation, which is the essential component of all sciences is "truth" because we define things that way. In other words it is as true as the meaning of any word we care to define.
Determinisation, however, is based on empirical findings and only remains true as long as it is not shown to be false. The absolute truth underlying individual realities is thus unknowable, as we would be required to know everything in order to know it. To borrow your words, "...science leaves us better informed but none the wiser."
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mikedagr8
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Re: telekinesis
« Reply #40 on: Sep 17th, 2007, 1:59am » |
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Quote:| Hey, there are a couple minors on here who aren't to bad, mikedagr8 included... |
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Hooray I'm tolerated by others (to an extent).  
What comments would you like? Do you want on the contention, the layout? I'm not sure so you tell me.
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TenaliRaman
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Re: telekinesis
« Reply #41 on: Sep 17th, 2007, 2:16am » |
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on Sep 17th, 2007, 1:33am, ThudanBlunder wrote:In physics, the more we probe the nature of matter, the more it appears to this observer that mind and matter are one, in the sense that the entities we are forced to invent and describe are more mathematical abstraction than physical reality.
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What if we had the superpower to see things at quantum scale and things beyond three dimensions? Would that statement still hold true?
The biggest hurdle in science, as i believe, is the limitations put on us by our senses. It is for this that man has to stand back and rely on what would one call insight and imagination to go beyond his limitations. I am sure, we all agree on this.
Even though gathering empirical evidence is tough, but that wont stop us from going beyond in our search. Only problem, we might lose sight of what is wrong and what is right and finally land upon several theories that seem correct in their own right complemented by the empirical evidences that we would have gathered by then. Would science see its end? No, we will continue to find all the theories that explain our empirical evidences and then each person would simply choose what he believes to be right and work on it (something which is pretty much already happening in the world of physics).
Given that our imagination has no boundaries (unless the opposite is proven), i would assume the position of an optimist and believe that a theory of everything might still be a possibility.
-- AI
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towr
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Re: telekinesis
« Reply #42 on: Sep 17th, 2007, 2:24am » |
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on Sep 16th, 2007, 3:53pm, srn347 wrote:| It is not magic! If you refuse to believe it(although you have that right), you won't be able to use it. |
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That's a magical explanation if ever there was one. "The power of belief".
Note that I didn't say telekinesis was magic, just that your explanation of it is magical. You don't consider how it might physically work, or even if it could physically work, but just give vague handwavy explanations.
It'd be equivalent to saying that the way computers work is that gnomes inside the computer process what you type on the keyboard really fast. That's how it might work on the Discworld, but here there are no gnomes to be found when you examine the computer circuitry (but perhaps you can only see them if you believe they're there. Maybe, just maybe, you can't help but see them, once you believe they're there, ragardless of whether they objectively are. Because it's magic, after all.)
So if you please, give a non-magical account of how telekinesis can work. How is the energy of the mind put to work, which force moves the object, how can the hypothesis be tested, and why would belief factor into it? Scientific thinking is what we're after!
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TenaliRaman
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Re: telekinesis
« Reply #43 on: Sep 17th, 2007, 2:31am » |
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on Sep 17th, 2007, 2:24am, towr wrote:| It'd be equivalent to saying that the way computers work is that gnomes inside the computer process what you type on the keyboard really fast. |
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FYI, its monkeys who are inside the computers. Gnomes are slimy creatures that live in your backyard. Pfft!
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towr
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Re: telekinesis
« Reply #44 on: Sep 17th, 2007, 2:40am » |
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on Sep 16th, 2007, 6:46pm, ThudanBlunder wrote:While we are on the subject, at a recent teacher training interview I had to write a 500-word test essay, which ended as follows:
Does education allow us to pursue the truth? |
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Pursue, yes; catch, no.
Quote:| Even in the idealised world of mathematical axioms there is uncertainty, since no system can prove its own logical consistency - and conversely, if a system is logically consistent it must contain some true yet unprovable statements. |
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Untrue. Godel's incompleteness theorem applies only to certain logical systems, ones that make arithmetic claims (or something to that effect).
Propositional logic for example is entirely decidable, every theorem is either true, or false: no true statement is unprovable.
Quote:| In other words, education leaves us better informed but none the wiser. |
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That would be a woefull state of education, if it only informs you. It is hard to say what wisdom is, or whether it really even exists. But certainly education should do more than merely inform a student. It should make them think, and question; and let's say 'think' first, because otherwise questions are pointless.
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| « Last Edit: Sep 17th, 2007, 2:44am by towr » |
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mikedagr8
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Re: telekinesis
« Reply #45 on: Sep 17th, 2007, 2:47am » |
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on Sep 17th, 2007, 2:40am, towr wrote:
That would be a woefull state of education, if it only informs you. It is hard to say what wisdom is, or whether it really even exists. But certainly education should do more than merely inform a student. It should make them think, and question; and let's say 'think' first, because otherwise questions are pointless. |
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I have multiple prime examples, it would take only a few moments to provide cases, which I am sure we all could agree would satisfy the above.
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towr
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Re: telekinesis
« Reply #46 on: Sep 17th, 2007, 2:49am » |
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on Sep 17th, 2007, 2:16am, TenaliRaman wrote:| Given that our imagination has no boundaries (unless the opposite is proven) |
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If mind is matter, then imagination is limited. Because then there will be a finite number of quantum states our mind can be in. (And at most each quantum state could be one imagined entity; but likely billions upon billions form the same one)
The collective imagination of the observable universe won't be qualitatively better in that respect, it'd still have a finite number of quantum states, and so finite imagination
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ThudnBlunder
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Re: telekinesis
« Reply #47 on: Sep 17th, 2007, 3:07am » |
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on Sep 17th, 2007, 2:16am, TenaliRaman wrote:
What if we had the superpower to see things at quantum scale and things beyond three dimensions? |
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But it is the very nature of things that we cannot see quarks, for example.
So I don't see the point in asking, "What if nature were not like that?"
on Sep 17th, 2007, 2:16am, TenaliRaman wrote:The biggest hurdle in science, as i believe, is the limitations put on us by our senses.
It is for this that man has to stand back and rely on what would one call insight and imagination to go beyond his limitations. I am sure, we all agree on this. |
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Again, such is the nature of light.
If insight and imagination are not verifiable then they will remain insight and imagination, even if true. Perhaps, this is not unconnected with Godel's theorem.
I think it is only fitting that we cannot work out everything with the (finite) mind, as it wouldn't be much of a Universe if we could. How can a part understand the Whole?
on Sep 17th, 2007, 2:40am, towr wrote:| Untrue. Godel's incompleteness theorem applies only to certain logical systems, ones that make arithmetic claims (or something to that effect). |
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When writing a 500-word essay in 45 minutes such riders become omittable.
on Sep 17th, 2007, 2:40am, towr wrote:
If the truth cannot be precisely defined then we cannot pursue it. We can only appear to.
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| « Last Edit: Sep 17th, 2007, 3:57am by ThudnBlunder » |
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TenaliRaman
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Re: telekinesis
« Reply #48 on: Sep 17th, 2007, 4:51am » |
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on Sep 17th, 2007, 2:49am, towr wrote:
Another good reason as to why i believe in cartesian Dualism
on Sep 17th, 2007, 3:07am, ThudanBlunder wrote:| So I don't see the point in asking, "What if nature were not like that?" |
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I always thought that asking such questions forms the basis of inductive thinking. Isnt science more or less an inductive process of learning?
Quote:| If insight and imagination are not verifiable then they will remain insight and imagination, even if true. |
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I accept this point whole heartedly, but it in no way refutes the possibility that the insight will never be verified. A completely unverifiable theory is as useless as the proposal of telekinesis.
Quote: I think it is only fitting that we cannot work out everything with the (finite) mind, as it wouldn't be much of a Universe if we could. How can a part understand the Whole?
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The point of debate then would be, is mind really a part of the universe. 
-- AI
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| « Last Edit: Sep 17th, 2007, 4:54am by TenaliRaman » |
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Grimbal
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Re: telekinesis
« Reply #49 on: Sep 17th, 2007, 5:34am » |
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Did you ever utter the words "I am conscious"? To do that your mind must have a way to affect the physical world. And if it affects the physical world, it is physical.
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