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Topic: Beautiful chess puzzle (Read 14925 times) |
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ThudnBlunder
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Re: Beautiful chess puzzle
« Reply #50 on: Oct 6th, 2003, 8:08pm » |
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Quote:| I don't see how the white rook can get past the black king. |
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Let White still be able to castle.
Let a White rook be at f1.
Let the Black rooks be at a2 and b2.
Let the Black bishop be at h2.
Let the Black queen be on d4.
Let the Black king be at f6 (via g7).
Then White can move his f1 rook to c3 via the 8th rank.
The Black rooks then take the same route (moving the other way) to get to f2 and f3.
The White rook on c3 moves to h6.
The Black king on f6 moves to b7 via 8th rank.
The White rook on h6 moves to f8.
The White queen on d4 moves to g7.
The Black bishop on h2 moves to g3.
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| « Last Edit: Oct 6th, 2003, 8:48pm by ThudnBlunder » |
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SWF
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Re: Beautiful chess puzzle
« Reply #51 on: Oct 6th, 2003, 10:08pm » |
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OK, T&B, I was able to follow your description and got the board position with white still able to castle. I wasted many moves, and exceeded the 50 move rule, but reducing to 49 moves after the last capture is within reason.
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Stefan Kneifel
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Re: Beautiful chess puzzle
« Reply #52 on: Oct 7th, 2003, 11:09am » |
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on Oct 6th, 2003, 10:08pm, SWF wrote:| but reducing to 49 moves after the last capture is within reason. |
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Hm... the shortest game I found to get to the position is the following ("---" means senseless waiting move):
Quote:1. b4 a5 2. b5 Ra6 3. Nc3 Rc6 4. Nd5 Rc3 5. Ba3 Nc6 6. Bc5 Ne5 7. Nb4 ab
8. a4 Nc4 9. a5 Nb6 10. a6 Nh6 11. a7 Nf5 12. a8R Nh4 13. R8a6 Na8 14. Rg6 hg
15. Ba7 b6 16. e3 Rh6 17. Qf3 Bb7 18. Qf5 gf 19. Nh3 Rd6 20. Nf4 Bf3
21. Ng6 Bh5 22. Nh8 Bg6 23. Bc4 Bh7 24. Rf1 g6 25. h3 Bg7 26. --- Be5
27. --- Bh2 28. f4 R6d3 29. Rf3 Kf8 30. Rg3 Kg7 31. Rg5 Kf6 32. Rh5 Bg8
33. Rh7 Qc8 34. Rg7 Bh7 35. Rg8 Qb7 36. Rb8 Qe4 37. Rb7 Qe5 38. Bb8 ---
39. Rba7 --- 40. R7a2 Ra3 41. --- Ra7 42. --- Rb7 43. Ba7 Rb8 44. --- Rg8
45. --- Rg7 46. --- Bg8 47. --- Rh7 48. --- Rh5 49. --- Rg5 50. --- Rg3
51. --- Rf3 52. --- Rf2 53. --- Ra3 54. Bb8 Ra7 55. --- Rb7 56. Ba7 Rb8
57. --- Bh7 58. --- Rg8 59. Bb8 Rg7 60. Ra7 Bg8 61. Rb7 Rh7 62. Ba7 Rh5
63. Rb8 Bh7 64. Rg8 Rg5 65. Rg7 Bg8 66. Rh7 Rg3 67. Rh5 Kg7 68. Rh7+ Kf8
69. Rg7 Ke8 70. Bb3 Kd8 71. Ba4 Kc8 72. Bb8 Bh7 73. Rg8+ Kb7 74. Rf8 Bg8
75. --- Rgf3 76. --- Bg3 77. --- Qg7 78. O-O-O ½:½ |
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what is exactly 50 moves after the last pawn move.
I hope it's correct... 
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SWF
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Re: Beautiful chess puzzle
« Reply #53 on: Oct 7th, 2003, 7:53pm » |
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Previously, I had been counting since the last capture not after last pawn move. In the sequence of moves I used, white's first move from that position is also exactly 50 moves after the last pawn was moved. Looks like doing it in fewer moves is not possible with that obstacle course the rooks must pass through. But a couple of days ago I thought there was no way for the rooks to cross paths, and I may be mistaken again.
Whoever invented this problem was quite clever.
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ThudnBlunder
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Quote:Whoever invented this problem was quite clever.
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It is not the only one of its type.
Here is another, though I am not suggesting that you try to solve it.
White to play and draw.
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kofman2155
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Re: Beautiful chess puzzle
« Reply #55 on: Oct 8th, 2003, 2:48pm » |
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I'm sorry, I'm new here and this may come of wrong, but their is no answer to the first puzzle. Their is no way to enforce a draw, becuase of a double threat on mate. I'm a chess player myself and usually can see moves fairly fast. Not to say that a draw is impossible, it simply can not be forced.
First their is the obvious threat. If Rook on f2 doesn't move. Queen to a1 is mate.
If u castle, that's mate. Say you through the queen away, it's still mate. h4-g2+ The knight can be sacrficed and used for mate. Unless u can find a move that blocks both threats, I see the game fairly hopeless. First off u have to block off the threat from the queen. You can either move the pawn to d4. Which than results in. f2-c2+ and than mate. Or you can move the rook, which is fatal, due to f2-g2+ and than mate. That is why I come to a conclusion that is is impossible to save yourself, yet alone draw. Also note that their is no way for white to check the king, and black will mate in one move if left alone.
No offense, I think it's cruel to make people think over things that can't be solved.
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ThudnBlunder
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Re: Beautiful chess puzzle
« Reply #56 on: Oct 8th, 2003, 4:45pm » |
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Quote:| I'm sorry, I'm new here and this may come of wrong, but their is no answer to the first puzzle. |
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Try reading the thread before posting. 
Quote:| No offense, I think it's cruel to make people think over things that can't be solved. |
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But it has been solved.
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| « Last Edit: Oct 8th, 2003, 5:55pm by ThudnBlunder » |
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kofman2155
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Re: Beautiful chess puzzle
« Reply #57 on: Oct 8th, 2003, 7:34pm » |
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I'm sorry, I'm confused and still disagree. Just tell me what move should white make to save itself. I've read a few answers, while still confused (seems like people are trying to derive on how, they got to that position instead of answering the initial question of how does white enforce a draw). My answer remains it can't. Please point me to the move that white should make in order to draw (just it's first move, if it the king can walk away from this position, than I'll consider the posibility for a draw), if you can walk away from this, than the person who solved it should be a GM.
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I think I finally get it, the game is a draw becuase 50 moves have went on prior to getting into that position. Let's say that's the case, I do believe there are still exceptions to this rule, and a piece will be take with black's next move breaking the 50 move streak unless you somehow prove that no pieces have been taken prior to white's 50th move, which is impossible and unlikly considering all the weakness, unless ofcoarse once again the two openents played perposily this way to stretch the game for 50 moves. Please explain the answer to me, if there is one. I still strongly disagree becuase it goes against everything I know as a chess player
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| « Last Edit: Oct 8th, 2003, 7:38pm by kofman2155 » |
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SWF
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Re: Beautiful chess puzzle
« Reply #58 on: Oct 8th, 2003, 9:00pm » |
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on Oct 8th, 2003, 7:34pm, kofman2155 wrote:| I do believe there are still exceptions to this rule, and a piece will be take with black's next move breaking the 50 move streak |
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Black has already made 50 moves since the last pawn was moved. When white moves without making a capture, that makes 50 moves for each side since the last pawn move or capture.
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wowbagger
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Re: Beautiful chess puzzle
« Reply #59 on: Oct 9th, 2003, 3:40am » |
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on Oct 8th, 2003, 7:34pm, kofman2155 wrote:| I still strongly disagree becuase it goes against everything I know as a chess player |
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Being a chess player myself, I understand your unease very well. In fact, I had the same problem with these retro puzzles at first. Maybe reading this post by THUDandBLUNDER helps.
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| « Last Edit: Oct 9th, 2003, 3:40am by wowbagger » |
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cryptreaper
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Re: Beautiful chess puzzle
« Reply #60 on: Jun 30th, 2004, 7:49pm » |
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Okay,from what kofman2155 said I found a way to block the queen threat and the horse and rook threat.Simply stay where you are and move c2-c3,that blocks the queen and if b4-c3 then it will take away the chance for the queen to take the checkmate in a few moves.That enables you one turn,because you could either take the pawn and the queen goes for the checkmate,or you can leave the pawn and let it take you,you buy yourself a turn.
The horse and rook situation,if you just stay there and n-g2,
you must move back,if he pushes the r-f1,then you move k-e2
thus gaining you some turns to escape and run,I think the drawing situation concerns your king running away and drawing with the other king.
Ok once you have gained the king advantage by the horse (if he does it this way) move the b-b3,then if he takes the rook,you move b-f7,then if he takes you,you move n-f8,one careless move and he gets a checkmate.So he has to keep his queen at that position,thus saving the rook for later deeds.
Now the stress is all on the black king because if he doesen't do something it's a checkmate.So his only choice is to move the r-e3 thus protected by the knight and checking the king.So his only choice is to move to k-c4.Then black moves e7-e5,thus checking the king again,all he can do is k-e5.
Booyaaaaaaaa I'm going to post the rest later when I have a break in my genius tactics,and if someone can do the rest for me later,that'll be fine!
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cryptreaper
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Re: Beautiful chess puzzle
« Reply #61 on: Jun 30th, 2004, 9:06pm » |
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Back to what I was getting to.Blacks move -c6 checking the king,his only move is to move back k-c4.Then black moves -b5
taking out the winning pawn for white.White moves his king to take out the pawn.In one move white is going to win so it is time to take out the white rook with the black rook(r-a1).It is time,white moves the only horse they have to f7 (n-f7).In one move it will be checkmate for white so black has to move the bishop or the rook moves to check the king.
Rook moves to check the king is the best idea so thats what black does,king moves to c4 (k-c4) thus blocking the bishop.Then black attacks the horse with the bishop.Rook has to take the bishop.Then the queen takes out the rook at f7.Check again,so the king goes to d4.If the queen doesen't move then it will get taken out,so it moves itself into a check against the white king.(Q-f6).Then the King is under check and must move back to the original spot.So the queen checks it again and the king must move,take note without the black queen it is mostly impossible to win for black.So the black queen checks the king again,and it moves back to its original spot.The queen checks the king again,with the same result,if the black queen didn't check the white king then the white pawn on d2 would take out the rook,so the queen checks the white king again and its all over!3 times the same thing its over!
(PS this is not the right answer I was just too lazy to type it all,oh yeah the post before this has all the good information.)
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Stefan Kneifel
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Re: Beautiful chess puzzle
« Reply #62 on: Jul 1st, 2004, 12:15am » |
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on Jun 30th, 2004, 7:49pm, cryptreaper wrote:| Simply stay where you are and move c2-c3,that blocks the queen |
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No it doesn't - Qxc3 does the job...
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cryptreaper
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Re: Beautiful chess puzzle
« Reply #63 on: Jul 1st, 2004, 6:44am » |
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on Jul 1st, 2004, 12:15am, Stefan Kneifel wrote:
No it doesn't - Qxc3 does the job...
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No it doesen't,if it takes c3 then you take -c3 it and it takes you with the pawn -c3 and you move K-D1.This leaving the bishop at G8 defenceless and the knight at h8 can just checkmate.
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ThudnBlunder
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Re: Beautiful chess puzzle
« Reply #64 on: Jul 2nd, 2004, 7:57pm » |
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on Oct 8th, 2003, 9:00pm, SWF wrote:
Black has already made 50 moves since the last pawn was moved. When white moves without making a capture, that makes 50 moves for each side since the last pawn move or capture.
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So White can make any non-capturing piece move, right? For example, Rb1.
That makes 50 moves and he can claim a draw.
Therefore he doesn't need to still be able to castle, does he?
Or am I missing something?
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| « Last Edit: Jul 2nd, 2004, 7:57pm by ThudnBlunder » |
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Hippo
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Re: Beautiful chess puzzle
« Reply #65 on: Mar 19th, 2007, 8:49am » |
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I am not sure the formulation of the problem was OK ... should not it be ... "There can be played a move in this position and if you play that move its draw." ... In that case 0-0-0 is the answer ... it can be played in the position and if played, the game ends by 50move rule draw.
There was proved that if rooking is possible ...
I don't think it was proven the 50move rule draw is forced if the rooking is not possible so other move didn't force the 50move rule draw.
If I look wrongly and the 50move rule draw is almost forced you cannot move pawn nor capture a piece.
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rmsgrey
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Re: Beautiful chess puzzle
« Reply #66 on: Mar 19th, 2007, 9:19am » |
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on Jul 2nd, 2004, 7:57pm, THUDandBLUNDER wrote:
So White can make any non-capturing piece move, right? For example, Rb1.
That makes 50 moves and he can claim a draw.
Therefore he doesn't need to still be able to castle, does he?
Or am I missing something?
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If white castles, that "proves" that the king (and the castling rook) have been in place all game. In order to shuffle the other pieces into place without moving the white king (or rook) out of the way, it seems that 49.5 moves must have passed since the last pawn move/capture. If white doesn't castle, then there are shorter possible histories, so you can't "prove" that it's a draw...
The deciding factor in such puzzles appears to be what a passing expert player could deduce with certainty by watching the game from the given position on - so if white doesn't capture, castle, or move a pawn on the first turn, he would be unable to castle later (the game continuing would "prove" that it wasn't a 50-move draw, so white must not be able to castle). Contrariwise, if white does castle, that proves it's a draw because the only history that allows him to makes it the 50th move.
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