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Topic: Creation vs Evolution (Read 24159 times) |
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ThudnBlunder
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How do atheists celebrate Christmas?
I guess they do nothing.
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towr
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Re: Creation vs Evolution
« Reply #101 on: Dec 13th, 2010, 10:48pm » |
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Most probably participate in the same consumerist rat-race as other people.
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rmsgrey
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Re: Creation vs Evolution
« Reply #102 on: Dec 14th, 2010, 3:38am » |
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How do Hindus, Muslims, Jews, Buddhists, Sikhs, etc, etc celebrate Christmas?
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ThudnBlunder
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Re: Creation vs Evolution
« Reply #103 on: Dec 14th, 2010, 5:18am » |
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By thanking their God they are not Christians?
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| « Last Edit: Dec 14th, 2010, 5:16pm by ThudnBlunder » |
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ThudnBlunder
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Re: Creation vs Evolution
« Reply #105 on: Dec 15th, 2010, 4:35am » |
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Anyway...
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towr
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Re: Creation vs Evolution
« Reply #106 on: Dec 15th, 2010, 8:52am » |
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on Dec 15th, 2010, 1:34am, BenVitale wrote:Why should it surprise someone? Christmas is hardly a Christian holiday these days. When was the last time Christmas was more about Christ than Santa Claus and presents and eating?
And most of the symbolism is pagan anyway.
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Benny
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Re: Creation vs Evolution
« Reply #107 on: Dec 16th, 2010, 2:38pm » |
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on Dec 15th, 2010, 8:52am, towr wrote:
Why should it surprise someone? Christmas is hardly a Christian holiday these days. When was the last time Christmas was more about Christ than Santa Claus and presents and eating?
And most of the symbolism is pagan anyway. |
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Actually, I've been thinking about this topic for a long time.
I asked myself, Is it rational for an atheist or an agnostic to celebrate Christmas?
I checked to see whether the different models of Rational Choice theory can provide some clues to address this question.
I haven't found anything yet.
But Richard Dawkins provide some clues:
He does celebrate Christmas - and enjoys singing traditional Christmas carols each festive season. He used to have a tree when his daughter was younger.
He continues: 'I really like the kind of peripheral things about Christmas. I like the smell of tangerines and the smell of the tree and to pull crackers.'
Certain traditions, rituals do matter not only because we can learn from the past, but also “because the present and the future are connected to the past by the continuity of a society’s institutions.” It is the glue between past, present and future.
Many Christians don't want to hear about the pagan origins of Christmas.
They offer naive answers to the question, "why is Christmas celebrated on Dec. 25th?
I am an agnostic, I only have one friend who is atheist. I will celebrate with him a rational holiday with him, but haven't decided which day it would be?
And, since I have a girlfriend who is Catholic, I will also celebrate Christmas, and go to church with my girlfriend and her family. That will please them a lot.
Family unity and relationships with Christians weigh more heavily on you than does the principle of avoiding religion.
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| « Last Edit: Dec 16th, 2010, 2:39pm by Benny » |
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rmsgrey
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Re: Creation vs Evolution
« Reply #108 on: Dec 17th, 2010, 6:04am » |
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Off the top of my head, it seems like the better question to ask in our current "Western" society is not "why celebrate Christmas?" but "why not celebrate Christmas?"
Questioning social convention can be a worthwhile endeavour, but, in the absence of solid reasons for change, "because that's the way things are done" should carry the day...
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towr
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Re: Creation vs Evolution
« Reply #109 on: Dec 17th, 2010, 8:40am » |
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on Dec 16th, 2010, 2:38pm, BenVitale wrote:| I am an agnostic, I only have one friend who is atheist. I will celebrate with him a rational holiday with him, but haven't decided which day it would be? |
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You should celebrate Agnostica, it started December 14 and has a half-life of a week, I think.
The gift-exchange part of the Agnostica season traditional consists of the Random Bag of Fun; which contains all manner of small gifts and every eligible celebrant gets to pick one at random.
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ThudnBlunder
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Re: Creation vs Evolution
« Reply #110 on: Dec 17th, 2010, 9:34am » |
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on Dec 16th, 2010, 2:38pm, BenVitale wrote:
I am an agnostic, I only have one friend who is atheist. I will celebrate with him a rational holiday with him, but haven't decided which day it would be? |
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As there will be nothing to celebrate except your scarcity of atheist friends, Feb 29th is a rational choice. 
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| « Last Edit: Dec 17th, 2010, 9:47am by ThudnBlunder » |
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Grimbal
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Re: Creation vs Evolution
« Reply #111 on: Dec 17th, 2010, 10:06am » |
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Whatever we celebrate is just a pretext.
Just have fun, invite friends, eat, drink, sing, exchange presents. It helps to fight the depression that comes easily in winter when days are short and the weather is cold and wet.
If I celebrate anything on Christmas, it is the family ties.
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Benny
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Re: Creation vs Evolution
« Reply #113 on: Dec 18th, 2010, 1:20pm » |
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Towr,
I like Agnostica and convenient for me, since my birthday is on Dec. 13th.
ThudnBlunder,
I see your point. Scarcity translates into celebrating once every 4 years.
Grimbal,
It makes sense to me to celebrate during winter.
rmsgrey,
I believe I have addressed partially to your question in the second part of my post.
I'd like to add the following:
Celebrations such Christmas + Santa, Thanksgiving, Halloween, etc. are rituals that bring people together. People enjoy them.
It's quite common and curious that some people will complain about having to come to family reunions and celebrations.
But if you tell them that, "Oh, sorry, you were not invited or it was cancelled this year!"
Guess what? They wouldn't be happy either.
This reminds me of a type of behavior (madness of crowds) with investors.
Investors are driven by 2 motivators:
- the fear of being left out or failing
- the tendency to look for leadership
Investors are overwhelmed by such emotion when it appears their peers are behaving in a certain universal manner. The fear of missing an opportunity for profits is a much bigger motivator than the fear of losing their life savings.
It is fear of being left out or failing when all the people around you are making big $$$.
The other motivator is tendency to look for leadership.
Leadership comes in 2 forms:
- A balance of the crowd's opinion (as we think that the majority must be right)
- Few key players in the market who seem to be driving the crowd's behavior.
Families build up their own rituals and traditions that help define them and set them apart.
Australian psychologist Andrew Fuller describes family rituals as the “coat hooks upon which we hang our family memories.”
Rituals are highly protective. The best rituals often cost nothing. These are the activities you hope that later on your children will reminisce and say “ Mum always made sure we did.” or Dad always made sure we did.”
Source
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Mickey1
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Re: Creation vs Evolution
« Reply #114 on: Dec 19th, 2010, 12:39pm » |
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How about a socialist buying goods on a capitalist market vs. an atheist celebrating Christmas.
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Benny
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Re: Creation vs Evolution
« Reply #115 on: Dec 20th, 2010, 11:36am » |
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on Dec 19th, 2010, 12:39pm, Mickey1 wrote:How about a socialist buying goods on a capitalist market vs. an atheist celebrating Christmas.
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Could you please clarify this? I mean, could you explain where you are going with this?
We can show that an atheist or agnostic celebrating Christmas is rational as I discussed it earlier or at least I offered my rationalization for celebrating Christmas.
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towr
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Re: Creation vs Evolution
« Reply #116 on: Dec 20th, 2010, 12:17pm » |
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If celebrating Christmas needs rationalization, you're doing it wrong.
It's similar to why the question of "why did you visit your friend in the hospital" should not be answered with some lengthy explanation of how you benefit as a rational utility maximizer, but with "because he's my friend, duh!".
Unless perhaps you're autistic, in which case you may not have a better way to cope with social life than to overthink it. (But even then, rote memorization of social convention probably works better.)
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Benny
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Re: Creation vs Evolution
« Reply #117 on: Dec 21st, 2010, 11:27am » |
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Autistic, me? No.
The 2 situations are different.
Situation #1: celebrating Christmas with my Catholic girlfriend and her family.
Situation #2: visiting a sick friend in a hospital.
In #2, surely, I'll go visit my friend. My action will not be based on considerations of teleological efficiency or calculation. I'll go visit him, because he's my friend, so my action is based on motivations derived from emotion.
In situation #1: I celebrate Christmas because it will make my girlfriend, and especially her family happy. So, there's a bit of calculation and emotion involved, here.
I'm, currently, writing a blog (in Wordpress) on Classical utilitarianism. In this blog, I'm looking at the ethics of lying through the lenses of Classical utilitarianism.
When I'm done writing it, could I post a link to it in this forum?
The Principle of Utility stated by John Stuart Mill :
"Actions are right in proportion as they tend to promote happiness, wrong as they tend to produce the reverse of happiness."
What is happiness?
John Stuart Mill answers:
"By happiness is intended pleasure, and the absence of pain."
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| « Last Edit: Dec 21st, 2010, 11:28am by Benny » |
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JiNbOtAk
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Re: Creation vs Evolution
« Reply #118 on: Dec 22nd, 2010, 10:38pm » |
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on Dec 14th, 2010, 3:38am, rmsgrey wrote:| How do Hindus, Muslims, Jews, Buddhists, Sikhs, etc, etc celebrate Christmas? |
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I don't celebrate Xmas, at least not the way Christians do (the tree, carols, mistletoe..) I guess for me it's just another holiday, most probably I'll catch up on watching HP7 Part 1..
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ThudnBlunder
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Below seems like a sensible way to start off any religious discussion: 
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| « Last Edit: Feb 11th, 2011, 7:16am by ThudnBlunder » |
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Grimbal
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Re: Creation vs Evolution
« Reply #120 on: Feb 14th, 2011, 4:39am » |
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Looks more like a way to shut down any religious discussion.
I stopped discussing religion with religion people. The flowchart provides a good explanation why.
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towr
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Re: Creation vs Evolution
« Reply #121 on: Feb 14th, 2011, 11:23am » |
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It's not just religion, but also things like homeopathy, anti-vaccination sentiments, alien visitation/abduction, climate-change denial etc.
People believe (and deny) all sorts of things on spurious grounds. And a lot of people lack the imagination to view the world from a different perspective and suspend entrenched (dis)beliefs long enough to have a discussion. Not all though.
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| « Last Edit: Feb 14th, 2011, 11:26am by towr » |
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ThudnBlunder
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Re: Creation vs Evolution
« Reply #122 on: Feb 14th, 2011, 2:35pm » |
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on Feb 14th, 2011, 4:39am, Grimbal wrote:Looks more like a way to shut down any religious discussion.
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Thanks, I hadn't realized it was that useful.
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| « Last Edit: Feb 16th, 2011, 9:49am by ThudnBlunder » |
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ThudnBlunder
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Re: Creation vs Evolution
« Reply #123 on: Feb 14th, 2011, 2:40pm » |
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on Feb 14th, 2011, 11:23am, towr wrote:It's not just religion, but also things like homeopathy, anti-vaccination sentiments, alien visitation/abduction, climate-change denial etc.
People believe (and deny) all sorts of things on spurious grounds. And a lot of people lack the imagination to view the world from a different perspective and suspend entrenched (dis)beliefs long enough to have a discussion. Not all though. |
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I wonder how do such 'obviously' false ideas arise in said unfortunate people.
Misinformation, perhaps. A little knowledge can be misused for ignoble purposes.
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| « Last Edit: Feb 14th, 2011, 2:41pm by ThudnBlunder » |
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