Author |
Topic: women - big problem (Read 29015 times) |
|
towr
wu::riddles Moderator
Uberpuzzler
Some people are average, some are just mean.
Gender: 
Posts: 13730
|
 |
Re: women - big problem
« Reply #175 on: Mar 24th, 2009, 7:57am » |
|
A pyramid scheme might work better if you asked them to send their sisters, instead of a dollar. 
|
|
 IP Logged |
Wikipedia, Google, Mathworld, Integer sequence DB
|
|
|
rmsgrey
Uberpuzzler
    
Gender:
Posts: 2873
|
|
Re: women - big problem
« Reply #176 on: Mar 24th, 2009, 8:02am » |
|
on Mar 24th, 2009, 7:57am, towr wrote:| A pyramid scheme might work better if you asked them to send their sisters, instead of a dollar. |
|
Like I said, I got a little mixed up 
Besides, any guy with a sister worth getting and enough influence over her to give her away is unlikely to need help getting a replacement model...
|
|
IP Logged |
|
|
|
Benny
Uberpuzzler
Gender:
Posts: 1024
|
|
Re: women - big problem
« Reply #177 on: May 15th, 2009, 5:09pm » |
|
I've just discovered "Love Economics"- a new love theory to promote intelligent dating by explaining love using simple math equations
http://www.solvedating.com/love-economics.html
|
|
IP Logged |
If we want to understand our world — or how to change it — we must first understand the rational choices that shape it.
|
|
|
towr
wu::riddles Moderator
Uberpuzzler
Some people are average, some are just mean.
Gender:
Posts: 13730
|
|
Re: women - big problem
« Reply #178 on: May 16th, 2009, 3:03am » |
|
on May 15th, 2009, 5:09pm, BenVitale wrote:| I've just discovered "Love Economics"- a new love theory to promote intelligent dating by explaining love using simple math equations |
|
I wouldn't bet my love life on it if I were you.
And they don't even tell you how to measure the variables used in their equations. It's as retarded as saying that the number of aliens in the universe is the number of planets times the average number of aliens per planet. (I'm not going through the entire retarded Drake equation.) It's meaningless dribble if you have no way to measure or accurately estimate the variables.
|
|
IP Logged |
Wikipedia, Google, Mathworld, Integer sequence DB
|
|
|
swanajohn
Newbie
Posts: 3
|
|
Re: women - big problem
« Reply #179 on: May 21st, 2009, 11:34pm » |
|
on May 16th, 2009, 3:03am, towr wrote:
I wouldn't bet my love life on it if I were you.
And they don't even tell you how to measure the variables used in their equations. It's as retarded as saying that the number of aliens in the universe is the number of planets times the average number of aliens per planet. (I'm not going through the entire retarded Drake equation.) It's meaningless dribble if you have no way to measure or accurately estimate the variables. |
|
Being a girl i agree with you.
// removed spam link --towr
|
| « Last Edit: May 22nd, 2009, 12:50am by towr » |
IP Logged |
|
|
|
Benny
Uberpuzzler
Gender:
Posts: 1024
|
|
Re: women - big problem
« Reply #180 on: Jun 15th, 2009, 3:14pm » |
|
I would like to hear comments from the women.
There's a question that a lot of women want to know the answer to: What’s wrong with men?
So, ladies, what do you think is wrong with men?
[By the way, I'm a male.]
|
|
IP Logged |
If we want to understand our world — or how to change it — we must first understand the rational choices that shape it.
|
|
|
towr
wu::riddles Moderator
Uberpuzzler
Some people are average, some are just mean.
Gender:
Posts: 13730
|
|
Re: women - big problem
« Reply #181 on: Jun 16th, 2009, 12:38am » |
|
on Jun 15th, 2009, 3:14pm, BenVitale wrote:| I would like to hear comments from the women. |
|
There aren't many active here, unfortunately.
|
|
IP Logged |
Wikipedia, Google, Mathworld, Integer sequence DB
|
|
|
ima1trkpny
Senior Riddler
"Double click on 'Yes'... Hey!"
Gender: 
Posts: 452
|
|
Re: women - big problem
« Reply #182 on: Jun 16th, 2009, 1:18am » |
|
on Jun 16th, 2009, 12:38am, towr wrote:
There aren't many active here, unfortunately. |
|
Yes, but the few of us that are have you all to ourselves... 
on Jun 15th, 2009, 3:14pm, BenVitale wrote:I would like to hear comments from the women.
...
So, ladies, what do you think is wrong with men?
|
|
Well, I'll keep this brief since I've made quite a few comments on this thread. There's nothing wrong with men... just very different. Men tend to be a bit less dramatic, which is probably the reason I find them easier to be around at times. However, I know you are a little more interested in the dating aspect of male-female relationships. In my own experience, I've typically found two categories of guys (and each guy can be to a greater or lesser degree) of either total jerks who only want into a woman's pants, or the super sweet type who maybe smart and in all other ways perfect but a total pushover. *bangs head into wall* The later of the two problems seems to be the one guys just don't understand when you explain to them why you're not interested... but the best I can explain is this: yes, we want a man who's considerate, smart, and can hold up an intelligent conversation, but it's nice to have someone who can challenge you to be a better person too... I can't put into words how boring/frustrating it is when a guy is so enamored he'd rather give in than have a good, heated debate and risk upsetting me. So for the reader's digest version of my opinion: smart, respectful, and loyal are great but if you've got the added little bit of fight/sassiness to keep it interesting... now THAT is sexy.
|
|
IP Logged |
"The pessimist sees difficulty in every opportunity. The optimist sees the opportunity in every difficulty." -Churchill
|
|
|
Benny
Uberpuzzler
Gender:
Posts: 1024
|
|
Re: women - big problem
« Reply #183 on: Jun 16th, 2009, 11:15am » |
|
ima1trkpny,
Thanks for your input.
True, I'm interested in the dynamics of dating. I've read what economists are saying about dating. I wish I had more time to look at their math/economics models.
I'm not looking at Standard economics models, but rather at behavioral economics models.
If you are interested, then read
Predictably Irrational | Dan Ariely
And,
An Economist Goes to a Bar And solves the mysteries of dating
Quote:
You wrote:
... of either total jerks who only want into a woman's pants...
|
|
Men have been designed and socially trained to be less sensitive and emotional ... They react to situations differently than women do... They don’t care any less, they just react / express themselves less and respond less.
Quote:
They are insecure around women. They are intimidated by strong women.
|
| « Last Edit: Jun 16th, 2009, 11:16am by Benny » |
IP Logged |
If we want to understand our world — or how to change it — we must first understand the rational choices that shape it.
|
|
|
Benny
Uberpuzzler
Gender:
Posts: 1024
|
|
Re: women - big problem
« Reply #184 on: Jun 16th, 2009, 2:52pm » |
|
Has anyone watched or read "A Beautiful Mind"?
Watch a scene from the movie "A Beautiful Mind" : Nash's Equilibrium on YouTube
I got interested in the applications of Game theory to dating and in other areas after I saw that movie.
Nash showed that markets work because of price signals -- something that is lacking in dating.
|
| « Last Edit: Jun 16th, 2009, 2:57pm by Benny » |
IP Logged |
If we want to understand our world — or how to change it — we must first understand the rational choices that shape it.
|
|
|
Grimbal
wu::riddles Moderator
Uberpuzzler
Gender:
Posts: 7527
|
|
Re: women - big problem
« Reply #185 on: Jun 17th, 2009, 6:23am » |
|
on Jun 16th, 2009, 2:52pm, BenVitale wrote:| Nash showed that markets work because of price signals -- something that is lacking in dating. |
|
Oh yes, it does. If you are trying to date a woman and she is undecided, and in an effort to convince her you offer $10 if she goes out with you, you are sure to change her opinion of you radically.
|
| « Last Edit: Jun 17th, 2009, 6:23am by Grimbal » |
IP Logged |
|
|
|
Benny
Uberpuzzler
Gender:
Posts: 1024
|
|
Re: women - big problem
« Reply #186 on: Jun 17th, 2009, 12:03pm » |
|
on Jun 17th, 2009, 6:23am, Grimbal wrote:
Oh yes, it does. If you are trying to date a woman and she is undecided, and in an effort to convince her you offer $10 if she goes out with you, you are sure to change her opinion of you radically.
|
|
Hehe! That reminds me of the movie "Indecent Proposal", which represents a version of the Ultimate Game.
Let's go back to the bar scene as described in the movie "A Beautiful Mind". How would you play this game?
The problem :
You and 3 male buddies are at a bar trying to pick up women. You see a group of women: one blonde and four brunettes. What’s the individual strategy?
Rules :
Each of you wants to talk to the blonde. If more than one of you tries to talk to her, however, she will be put off and talk to no one. At that point it will also be too late to talk to a brunette, as no one likes being second choice. Assume anyone who starts out talking to a brunette will succeed.
And, suppose you cannot separate the blonde from the "herd"
Do you adopt a "wait and see” strategy?
Do you decrease your expectations and replace them with a more of a wait and see approach?
Would you ignore the current group and wait for another group of women?
Would you pick a group member at random to go for the blonde?
Do you have a wingman? Or, do you play the role of a wingman?
Quote:
The men often pick a desired woman, who is referred to as the "target". The man intending to seduce the target is often called the "Pilot". The "Wingman" is expected to back up the pilot, which typically entails talking to the target's less attractive friend(s) and making comments that will make the "Pilot" seem more attractive.
|
|
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wingman_(social)#Procedure
|
| « Last Edit: Jun 17th, 2009, 12:05pm by Benny » |
IP Logged |
If we want to understand our world — or how to change it — we must first understand the rational choices that shape it.
|
|
|
towr
wu::riddles Moderator
Uberpuzzler
Some people are average, some are just mean.
Gender:
Posts: 13730
|
|
Re: women - big problem
« Reply #187 on: Jun 17th, 2009, 1:27pm » |
|
Obviously I'd invent game theory at the spot and run out of the bar to my apartment to write it down.
I'm really not particular about blonds though, I like brunette just as well, or any color. I mean, I like anime; so really, any color, green, blue, red, purple, white, pink, anything; as long as it fits the rest of the image. (Which, granted, is a much stricter constraint in reality. A good die-job is hard enough in itself; and even if it doesn't go awry there, most people don't have the sense to pick a color that suits them.)
But back to the question.
Realistically, I'd wait and see, and be all shy and bashful, probably.
A more clever approach might be to convince my friends to go for the brunettes, by explaining how none of them will get a girl if they all go for the blond. (Which I think Nash does, but without taking the opportunity to 'defect').
I suppose there is also the option of trying to chat up two brunettes, that's got to be better than one blond
And then there's the option of doing a round of speed dating (which bypasses the 'second-choice' problem by changing the rules of the game).
|
|
IP Logged |
Wikipedia, Google, Mathworld, Integer sequence DB
|
|
|
Benny
Uberpuzzler
Gender:
Posts: 1024
|
|
Re: women - big problem
« Reply #188 on: Jun 17th, 2009, 2:09pm » |
|
I've just watched a video on YouTube:
The Logic of Life: How economics can get you a date
Tim Harford, author of "The Logic of Life" and "The Undercover Economist", explains the economics of speed-dating, and asks, "are the romantics right about love, or are the economists right?"
Personally, I like all women. I mean I don't have a fixation for blondes or brunettes.
In the movie Russell Crowe suggests that the group should cooperate. If everyone goes for the blonde, that would be self-defeating, because they'd block each other and no one wins. It's a no-win situation.
But the movie fails to show that in real life, people do not cooperate easily, it doesn't show the non-cooperative feature of game theory.
How to achieve, in real life, equilibrium?
If you can convince your friends to go for the brunettes. Then it would be a 'win-win' situation for everybody ... but soon enough, your buddies will clearly realize that your sound advice is a trick to leave the blonde for yourself.
They may undermine your efforts as in the Ultimate game.
|
| « Last Edit: Jun 17th, 2009, 2:26pm by Benny » |
IP Logged |
If we want to understand our world — or how to change it — we must first understand the rational choices that shape it.
|
|
|
towr
wu::riddles Moderator
Uberpuzzler
Some people are average, some are just mean.
Gender:
Posts: 13730
|
|
Re: women - big problem
« Reply #189 on: Jun 17th, 2009, 3:29pm » |
|
on Jun 17th, 2009, 2:09pm, BenVitale wrote:| url=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JpU9XrQqYzc]The Logic of Life: How economics can get you a date[/url] |
|
It's an interesting observation he relates, but it doesn't mean much without better information of the conditions.
For example, he mention that women are pickier than men in speed dating; but it has been shown that this is at least in part a result of the fact that typically the women are sitting, and the men move around. If you reverse that aspect of the setup, women suddenly become less picky, and men moreso.
More in line with the actual topic, I have to question taking people's self-reported preference as a given. A girl might say she prefer tall dark billionaires, but that's not necessarily true. How different was the "quality" of the two groups of speed daters? And is speed dating a good measure anyway? That you wouldn't mind seeing 10% of the dating pool for a real date, doesn't mean you are equally likely to end up in a relationship with any of them.
Quote:| Tim Harford, author of "The Logic of Life" and "The Undercover Economist", explains the economics of speed-dating, and asks, "are the romantics right about love, or are the economists right?" |
|
Neither, I'd say.
I'd leave it to the (neuro-)biologists.
Quote:| But the movie fails to show that in real life, people do not cooperate easily, it doesn't show the non-cooperative feature of game theory. |
|
Actually, people cooperate very easily in many situations. But many of the examples are so common you don't even notice them as being cooperation. Like keeping to the law, buying/selling (where either party could try do defect from coming through with their side of the transaction), holding the door open for someone, stopping your car to let someone cross the street, charity/volunteer work, etc.
People are social creatures. They respond very easily to solicitations for cooperation.
|
|
IP Logged |
Wikipedia, Google, Mathworld, Integer sequence DB
|
|
|
Benny
Uberpuzzler
Gender:
Posts: 1024
|
|
Re: women - big problem
« Reply #190 on: Jun 17th, 2009, 8:58pm » |
|
The author (Tim Harford) also said:
"Generally, tall men get asked out on more dates than short men. But if you go to a speed-dating night, and it just so happens that there aren't as many tall guys, the women don't ask for fewer dates; they just lower their standards. It depends on availability. So if you're going out, it makes sense to go out with short, ugly friends, because your chances will improve."
Romantics are too idealistic, they aren't rational enough ... and economists see the world differently ... there are those who follow 'Standard economics' models and those who are behavioral economists. These represent the two extremes. The rest of us lay somewhere between these 2 poles ... we don't consciously calculate costs and benefits, but we unconsciously think like economists.
Quote:
Actually, people cooperate very easily in many situations |
|
Yes, I agree. I was referring to dating women. When it comes to finding, pursuing a female, there's less cooperation. Many men do put their own needs first. It is a survival instinct. Even though we (men) can be sort of selfish, we can change.
|
| « Last Edit: Jun 17th, 2009, 8:59pm by Benny » |
IP Logged |
If we want to understand our world — or how to change it — we must first understand the rational choices that shape it.
|
|
|
towr
wu::riddles Moderator
Uberpuzzler
Some people are average, some are just mean.
Gender:
Posts: 13730
|
|
Re: women - big problem
« Reply #191 on: Jun 18th, 2009, 1:22am » |
|
on Jun 17th, 2009, 8:58pm, BenVitale wrote:| "Generally, tall men get asked out on more dates than short men. But if you go to a speed-dating night, and it just so happens that there aren't as many tall guys, the women don't ask for fewer dates; they just lower their standards. It depends on availability. So if you're going out, it makes sense to go out with short, ugly friends, because your chances will improve." |
|
But that implies that if you were the last man on earth every woman would automatically want to sleep with you, regardless of how deformed and retarded you are. Which is ridiculous. It's like saying you'd buy a car with square wheels if that was the only thing the market had to offer, because no matter what you have to buy a car.
And even if you took a testdrive out of morbid curiosity, it doesn't mean you'd buy it.
Quote:| Romantics are too idealistic, they aren't rational enough ... and economists see the world differently ... |
|
Yeah, but economist are under the delusion people are rational, even though nearly every psychological experiment proves the contrary.
Quote:| we don't consciously calculate costs and benefits, but we unconsciously think like economists. |
|
No we don't. The only way economic models work, is if you define what the costs and benefits are to fit the model. It's a lot like evolutionary psychology in that sense, where all too often, they first note behavior, then construct a story to explain it. It's exactly the wrong way around. You need to first make the hypothesis, and then test it; not construct the hypothesis around the results of tests you did earlier.
Economists can't explain things like attachment, how when you've chosen for something you tend to stick with it even if something (someone) better comes along. People aren't constantly trading up in relationships, which you'd have to expect based on economic models. (It does occur occasionally, of course, but it's rare.)
People aren't rational agents, they're biological agents.
Quote:| Yes, I agree. I was referring to dating women. When it comes to finding, pursuing a female, there's less cooperation. |
|
There's less opportunity and need for cooperation. And yet you did mention "wingmen", so clearly there is cooperation. And of course there's the fact that most men don't try to pursue women that are in a relationship. (More conflict avoidance than cooperation, but it's in the same line of behaviour.)
Why should there be more cooperation? You don't need cooperation to eat dinner or go to the bathroom; not every situation needs cooperation.
I really don't think there is such a fierce competition for women. The number of women in the world is roughly equal to the number of men. And all people have slightly different preferences, and run in different social circles; and the latter is a much better predictor for who you will become involved with than any rational considerations.
And I really don't think it's obvious that speed dating is a good model for mate selection. How many speed daters end up in a lasting relationship? And how does that compare to dates you get through work or friends?
I'm willing to bet speed dating is a much, much, lower success ratio.
|
| « Last Edit: Jun 18th, 2009, 1:23am by towr » |
IP Logged |
Wikipedia, Google, Mathworld, Integer sequence DB
|
|
|
Benny
Uberpuzzler
Gender:
Posts: 1024
|
|
Re: women - big problem
« Reply #192 on: Jun 18th, 2009, 11:57pm » |
|
Towr, thanks for your input.
I only recently discovered Tim Harford ... and before him, I discovered "Freakonomics" which I haven't finished reading ... I'm reading slowly because I'm enjoying it, I'm savoring it.
I cannot say how much I agree with the author, but, generally speaking, I enjoy reading behavorial economics. Tim Harford's Logic of Life, Dan Ariely's Predictably Irrational and Freakonomics are hilarious, thought-provoking ... these book offer an entertaining and provocative look at the logic behind the seemingly irrational.
In his book, Tim Harford, states that life looks illogical, but underneath it all there is a hidden logic. It isn’t always pretty, but it’s there for you to see it.
He utilized John von Neumann and Thomas Schelling's conceptions of game theory, Harford applies their approach to a multitude of arenas, including marriage, the workplace and racism, poker players in Las Vegas, violent spouses, alcoholics, and school bullies.
I'm gonna share the following videos ... and I hope you'll enjoy watching them, and hope that this will generate more discussions
I'm gonna post the videos later, as I had a problem posting them
|
| « Last Edit: Jun 19th, 2009, 12:00am by Benny » |
IP Logged |
If we want to understand our world — or how to change it — we must first understand the rational choices that shape it.
|
|
|
towr
wu::riddles Moderator
Uberpuzzler
Some people are average, some are just mean.
Gender:
Posts: 13730
|
|
Re: women - big problem
« Reply #193 on: Jun 19th, 2009, 12:29am » |
|
on Jun 18th, 2009, 11:57pm, BenVitale wrote:| In his book, Tim Harford, states that life looks illogical, but underneath it all there is a hidden logic. It isn’t always pretty, but it’s there for you to see it. |
|
I'd like to hear what he thinks the logic is behind the observed phenomenon that if you get an interviewer to hold a cup of warm liquid before an interview they're much more likely to be positive about the interviewee, than when you get them to hold a cup of chilled liquid.
Evolution doesn't deal in logic, it deals in whatever survives to future generations. That does cause many behaviours to emerge that make sense, of course, but also many behaviours that really don't.
|
|
IP Logged |
Wikipedia, Google, Mathworld, Integer sequence DB
|
|
|
Grimbal
wu::riddles Moderator
Uberpuzzler
Gender:
Posts: 7527
|
|
Re: women - big problem
« Reply #194 on: Jun 28th, 2009, 12:16pm » |
|
on Jun 17th, 2009, 2:09pm, BenVitale wrote:In the movie Russell Crowe suggests that the group should cooperate. If everyone goes for the blonde, that would be self-defeating, because they'd block each other and no one wins. It's a no-win situation.
But the movie fails to show that in real life, people do not cooperate easily, it doesn't show the non-cooperative feature of game theory. |
|
http://xkcd.com/182/
|
|
IP Logged |
|
|
|
ima1trkpny
Senior Riddler
"Double click on 'Yes'... Hey!"
Gender:
Posts: 452
|
|
Re: women - big problem
« Reply #195 on: Jun 29th, 2009, 9:45am » |
|
on Jun 28th, 2009, 12:16pm, Grimbal wrote:
ahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha!
|
|
IP Logged |
"The pessimist sees difficulty in every opportunity. The optimist sees the opportunity in every difficulty." -Churchill
|
|
|
Benny
Uberpuzzler
Gender:
Posts: 1024
|
|
Re: women - big problem
« Reply #196 on: Jun 29th, 2009, 11:53am » |
|
on Jun 28th, 2009, 12:16pm, Grimbal wrote:
That's very cute ... good humor!
If Nash go for the blonde while his buddies go for the brunettes, this could be a Nash equilibrium (NE), depending on the payoffs.
But we don't know them
There could be more than one NE
Suppose you go to a bar with n friends. Each of the players can either go for the blonde or do nothing.
How would you advise your buddies in the bar?
How your matrix of payoffs would look like?
|
|
IP Logged |
If we want to understand our world — or how to change it — we must first understand the rational choices that shape it.
|
|
|
Benny
Uberpuzzler
Gender:
Posts: 1024
|
|
Re: women - big problem
« Reply #197 on: Jul 6th, 2009, 8:59pm » |
|
Please read the following article that appeared in the New York Times
|
|
IP Logged |
If we want to understand our world — or how to change it — we must first understand the rational choices that shape it.
|
|
|
Benny
Uberpuzzler
Gender:
Posts: 1024
|
|
Re: women - big problem
« Reply #198 on: Jul 9th, 2009, 10:44am » |
|
Nash is being tricky ... he wanted his buddies to go for the brunettes, so he could have the blonde and win the game.
If Nash were to go for the blonde himself, however, while his friends went for her friends, this could be a Nash equilibrium, depending on the payoffs.
The solution as depicted in the movie is not a Nash equilibrium. There could be more Nash equilibria depending on the payoffs.
Suppose we have:
Strategy ............................. Payoff
===============================
doing nothing ................................ 2
going for the blonde successfully ...... 3
Going for the blonde and losing ........ 0
How would you maximize your expected payoff?
|
| « Last Edit: Jul 9th, 2009, 10:46am by Benny » |
IP Logged |
If we want to understand our world — or how to change it — we must first understand the rational choices that shape it.
|
|
|
puzzlecracker
Senior Riddler
Men have become the tools of their tools
Gender:
Posts: 319
|
|
Re: women - big problem
« Reply #199 on: Sep 17th, 2009, 6:23pm » |
|
Hey guys and few girls (this ratio will be changed!), I haven't posted here in a while, but have forgotten about your natural needs, namely attraction! To this end, a few days ago, I published an article on reddit about the topic that touches upon ideas expressed in this thread.
http://www.reddit.com/r/programming/comments/9jdtb/working_in_developmen t_shop_fog_creek_or_google/
This thread has started by the infamous the google's co-founder -- Sergey Bring -- over 4 years ago, and it's only taking off. I promise to bring a sex liberation to geeks. I am confident that in 2010 and beyond, our sex lives will be enriched with pleasure, diversity, and variety
Let's start with baby steps:
Thoughts about above article, before we delve into other issues...
Fondly yours,
The Puzzlecracker!
|
| « Last Edit: Sep 17th, 2009, 6:25pm by puzzlecracker » |
IP Logged |
While we are postponing, life speeds by
|
|
|
|
RIDDLES SITE
WRITE MATH!
Home 
Help 
Search 
Members 
Login 
Register
Notify of replies
Send Topic
Print